EP135: The New Mission Field - So What Exactly is Going on with Rey?

So where exactly has Ray been these days? That's a great question. I'm glad you asked. Hey, this is Jeff with the Church Digital Podcast. Once again, it's powered by Stadia Church Planting. And I am excited to have this conversation. Ray DeArmas has been a great friend. And if I say over the decades, that is not an overstatement. He's been a phenomenal friend over the years. And I literally cannot imagine life or more specifically, the Church Digital Podcast. I cannot imagine TCDP without Ray DeArmas. And some things have been going on. And rather than even talking about it in this interview, and in hearing what's going on in Ray in his heart, I was like, hey, we got to pause and we got to bring it in here and do a podcast conversation, do an episode centered around this.

Ray, if you don't know Ray, if you don't even my story, I was digital pastor at Christ Fellowship Miami for a number of years, a number of different roles covering multiple decades almost through the church. Actually, I was just counting the years in my head and it's been a while, but digital pastor, experience director. And honestly, when I left Christ Fellowship Miami, a church that's dear to my heart, literally was my home church, the church that I accepted Christ, the church that I grew up in. As I walked away from ministry in 2018, seeing where God was leading me in a different road, it hurt, but it was something for me that I was excited to do because I knew that leaders were left behind, were able to run with this.

Guys like Ray DeArmas, guys like Garrett Silji, who's actually doing the editing for these podcast episodes that we release out. And so I knew that leaders were going to rise up for the occasion. And so Ray DeArmas has been a campus pastor there for a number of years, digital pastor there for a number of years. And well, you know what, I'm going to let him dig into this and really talk about what's going on. So literally for this conversation, I'm bringing in Ray DeArmas, digital pastor, Christ Fellowship Miami, and myself, Jeff with the Church Digital and director of digital church planning for Stadia Church Planting in a conversation that I'm simply calling, hey, what exactly is going on with Ray DeArmas?

Okay, everybody, here you go. What's been going on in your life? What's the story? Yeah, so I recently stepped away from employment at Christ Fellowship Miami. I stepped away from being the digital pastor for good. I don't want to just say for now, you know, for good. But what I did was I actually went back to school to become a physician assistant or what is actually the title of the position is actually being changed recently to physician associate. And so it's a two and a half year program. It's 27 months. And really with the goal of making this like my full time employment for the next some odd years, as God will have me in this position. And so it's a big change. It's a big shift, especially since I've been in part, I've been in part of paid ministry for the better part of maybe like 15 years now, 15 or 16 years, 10 years at Christ Fellowship or 10 or 11 years at Christ Fellowship, and then four years at Miami Baptist Church and then volunteering in between in and out there in different churches in different positions.

But yeah, I just recently made a big shift. And so that's what I'm doing. You know, that's you've spent 15 years of your life. By the way, congratulations. You know, I'm sorry. You know, I've loved you in the ministry role. I've loved you in that position. You've been, you know, one of the top digital pastors, and this is not just me talking, but you've been one of the top digital pastors really in the country on how you've been focusing on ministry and doing this. You've got 15 years in ministry career. You've got a MDiv. Like what's your seminary degree from Southern, right? Yeah, it's from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Yeah. Shout out to Russell Moore, one of my fave professors. Guy was just incredible.

And so many folks there. Yeah, it was just awesome. But yeah, I mean, so I had a lot vested in this. So it was good. And then like you're shifting, you're actually going back to school to study, to be this physician, associate type of role in two years of your life, right, is now into like studying the medicine behind this and the techniques of it. Like what's the motivation behind some of this shift? Like you've got 15 plus years heading in one direction and it's like it's a pivot. And it's not like it's a casual pivot where, oh, I'm going to go be an accountant and I'll just count beans or something. Like you're having to go back to school to learn how to do this stuff. So like that's not an easy road.

What's motivating you to do this? Yeah. So most people don't know who listen to the podcast that we've done for so long would know that my undergrad, I was pre-med and I actually have a bachelor's in science and health sciences. But even then, part of my motivations for going in the ministry was really about helping people. That was kind of the first and foremost thing that I really enjoy doing. And I think that gets me going at the beginning and the end of the day is helping people. And especially in ministry, discipling people and working with people a lot in a one-on-one situation. And even in like a one-to-crowd situation, it's fine too, but really just kind of working with people and helping people has been a prime motivator.

And when I got into ministry, that's primarily what I thought was going to be the majority of it. The reality is, is like after 15 years of ministry, I started to notice that things kind of shifted and changed. And that's not just working at Christ Fellowship. That's other churches that I've been part of and I shifted to that it became less about developing and discipling like individuals and more about, and there's nothing wrong with this, equipping people to do, you know, volunteer work and do stuff that's much larger, but it was less of the things that really got me jazzed and motivated. And it was a lot more of that. And so, you know, for some of those reasons for years, this wasn't like an immediate shift.

This was something that had been going on for about three or four years of my life, just thinking through and just kind of working with stuff. And it was, it was tough. You know, there'd be times where I would butt heads with leaders or, or go through things, you know, that kind of called me away from some of those things that I enjoy doing. And, and it became more about kind of the big and less about, you know, discipling the small. And that became a point of frustration for me. And so, and, and really I started to question, I started to ask, well, why is this bothering me? What's going on inside? And so just in talking with family and just talking about what my gifting is and what I enjoy doing, my family started to ask, they're like, Hey, so if you kind of know that this is what that is, what, what that, what that career path is, then why don't you make a shift?

You know, before you, you pursued, you know, medicine, because you saw this as a possibility, because you saw how you could care for individuals, because you saw how you could do that and why not consider shifting back? And so starting back a couple of years ago, I started to take some prerequisite classes. I started to get reinterested. I started doing some shadowing hours in the ER and I really fell in love with medicine again, and with the ability to make an impact on life. And mind you, even prior to that, I had led medical mission trips where we would go, you know, share the gospel in El Salvador. And I would watch my sister, who's a physician assistant go out and like minister to people.

And I would watch some of the other doctors and nurses do it. And I would just think to myself, I would be like, you know, I can tell them about Jesus in this moment. They are showing them Jesus, you know, not just through tangible healing, but really just through providing something to them that they can't get from somebody that is just telling them something. This person is showing them the love of God by imparting this, you know, medical knowledge to them, but also they are sharing the gospel with them in a verbal kind of setting. And I thought, man, I would like to be part of something like that again. Wow. So is that, and you mentioned your sister as part of like being the, one of these medical associates, the physician associates, um, was, was that like the, the drive to get back into the medical field?

Like you've got lots of different options. You know, I, I've, I've actually heard several pastors in, in recent areas leaving the pastor full-time staff ministry to head more towards, uh, real estate and have seen several begin. The reason why is because they're seeing it be much more relational and able to connect and meet with people. Why, why medical? Why'd you choose that field? I, you know, I, I love it. Uh, so, you know, uh, I think that's kind of the funny thing about it is that I love, I love medicine, like in that kind of side of it. I enjoy science. I'm a science, you know, geek at the heart of it. But at the same time, uh, one of the things that I really enjoy about it is that it's, it's something I can do from anywhere.

Uh, you know, uh, it's something that I can impart to anybody and really kind of make an impact. And so it doesn't matter if it's here in the United States, it doesn't matter if it's on medical missions in another country, it's a way that I can make an impact. And it's a tool that the Lord can leverage, uh, you know, in order to do that. And so that was something that we saw early on. And, you know, I said, man, I'm gifted for this. I can do this. And at the same time, uh, I can have a lot of fun doing it and work with teams. And the other thing is, is, you know, when I shadowed my sister in the ER and this was pre COVID, um, when I shadowed Bridget in the ER, I saw the team come together in a way to help people that I, I really didn't see in a whole lot of other environments, including sadly enough, the local church.

Like I saw people come around a plan to help an individual, you know what I'm saying? With placing them at the highest concern, which to me was just something that was so invigorating, you know, that I said, wow, this is something I can get with. This is something I could find purpose in. And at the same time, it's a place where the love of God is needed because especially with medical health professionals and coming out of COVID, it can be a very dark environment. It can be very, very difficult in terms of what they deal with in and out day after day. You know, one of Jeff's favorite shows and one of my favorite shows is the show Scrubs. And if any of you have never seen this show, uh, you need to go on Amazon prime right now.

It's free. And Scrubs actually has been awarded by the American medical association. It's like the most accurate medical show. Now, first of all, the show is hilarious. And so you could, you should watch it for the comedy. It's Bill Lawrence at his finest, but the other side of it is just showing the other side of medicine, which is very much the relational side. And for doctors and nurses, it can be very, it can be a very, very difficult thing when you're dealing with life and death on a regular basis. It can be a very hard place, a very emotional rollercoaster kind of a place. And so the light has to shine bright in the darkest places. And one of those places is in the medical field. Wow. There's a lot of depth there.

First off, if you're watching on YouTube, here is the JD and Dr. Cox Funko bobblehead pops right here on YouTube, on the video. You need a Turk one. Right there. I do need a Turk one. It's, it's on the list, but I kind of collect them in pairs. And Turk was like the odd man out, but coming soon. Uh, it's, it's interesting. Sarah Chalk, what is it? Dr. Reed on the show? Dr. Elliot Reed. Yeah. Like, like they, they don't have one. And so it's like, what, what, why don't you like the ladies? But anyway, sorry. Oh no, they need a Jordan one. They need a Carla one. No, no, no, no, no. We need the, they have a janitor at least, right? Is there a janitor? Oh my gosh. No, there has to be a janitor. Not the janitor.

No, that's a rip off. That's the one that you need right there. And we, we can relive scrubs all day long. By the way, I would pause. I don't know if it's Bill Lawrence's, uh, best. You said it was his best work. I don't know. Oh, you're, you're going with Ted Lasso? You're, you're, you're going with Ted? Part of me is kind of feeling it. I'm, I'm, I'm seeing where scrubs really got kind of like network controlled and, and went in some different directions. It kind of went. Oh, season nine is trash. Season nine is trash. You gotta, you gotta abandon season nine, but at one through eight. And that's, that's kind of why I'm liking like this doctor or not Dr. Lasso, but Ted Lasso, because it's really, it's isolated.

And I feel like Apple's kind of giving them space. And listen, we can have this conversation all day long. And maybe this is like the post podcast, the after show, uh, that, that we will, we will do once I press stop. That's where we'll really have, uh, you know, that conversation, but really what you're describing. Stay tuned, folks. Definitely. What you're describing here is, is really the, the heart behind engaging with people and, and doing ministry. Like, and it's funny, even in the subsequent conversations that, that I've, that I've had with you over the weeks since this has kind of rolled out and been public, and you've been actively pursuing this in school and things like that. I mean, you, you're saying terms like, yeah, I've got to go be Jesus for this person or, you know, and, and it's been in terms, even in your day to day life of, of ministry, not of school, not of activities, but being the church within the college, within the university, within the classes, within the hallways of what you're doing in this context.

And you're studying to actually do the thing that you're doing instead of like actually doing it. Um, is, was that, was that a hard, I'm figuring out how to ask this question delicately. Like, was that a culture shift for you? Was it hard for you to take that mentality? Um, is that something that, that you were doing in a church staff world? Was that lost in the church staff world? I just would love some insight, how you're pivoting and now being much more, um, relational to a person in being that, as opposed to, I mean, let's, let's be fair, larger churches, you're, you're managing systems. You're, you're not to an individual as much as making sure that the overall flow is working effectively.

What's that transition been like? So I think you'll appreciate this, Jeff. Um, so, you know, I'll kind of enter into it. I, I wondered and prayed through how I would kind of find my way into a lot of this in terms of mission and how it would work. And sure enough, God does his thing where he opens a door and he's gifted you in ways that you may not understand. Right. So, um, so I walk into class and I'm doing my thing in orientation and trying to feel my way around. And honestly, like I'm a puppy amongst pit bulls. Like they've got people there with a lot more medical experience and a lot of, a lot of background, a lot of things that I've never done. Like this is a privilege and a half for me.

I'm one of 50 applicants that got accepted after the thousands of applicants they get every year for this particular program. So that's, that's a blessing in and of itself. But so as I go in, uh, you know, it comes the announcement because there's a lot of good conversation amongst classmates. Like we've got a WhatsApp chat and they're like, Hey, we need a technology officer. So I think to myself, I'm gifted for this. Here's my inroads. Here we go. And they're like, uh, so I just volunteer. I'm like, Hey, I can do this. I can be the guy who is our tech officer. And they're like, okay, Ray volunteered for this. Uh, they give me a little bit of training and it turns out that they already have technology in the classroom that records all of our classes.

Well, uh, I want to take it a step further. So I start taking all the recordings and I rip the audio and I put it up on podcast. And so all of our lectures are available on Spotify, Apple podcasts. And I begin submitting that out to my classmates. Well, the next thing, you know, the upperclassmen get word, the people who are a year ahead of us in the program. And they're like, wait a minute, this guy does what? And now they're asking, and now they're being impacted by me. And then the next thing, you know, relationships just start building. And they're like, so what did you do prior to this? And I'm like, well, I was a pastor at a church. They're like, are you serious? And I'm like, yes, I was a digital strategist and an online pastor at Christ Fellowship.

And this is our church and this is what we do. And all of a sudden it becomes, oh man, you know, I've been thinking about Jesus and it just creates conversation out of nowhere conversation that I didn't wear Christian, Christian t-shirts to school. Nobody saw any church bumper stick or anything like that on my car. It just creates obvious inroads to conversation. Um, other sides that have kind of come up on stuff. And Jeff, you and I were talking about this earlier, folks will get a good or a bad test grade. And the next thing you know, because these folks are high achievers, I mean, high, high achievers, it gets them knocked down a peg. And so I find myself having to be the Ted Lasso of my classroom, having to like go and like pick them up and say, Hey, we got to be a goldfish, you know, like, look, you're, you were here for a purpose.

And, and I really believe that you genuinely have a reason for being here. This isn't just because you're smart, like you're here because they could have chosen anybody else, but there's a reason that you were here. You need to clue into that. You have a purpose and it becomes larger existential conversations where I get to be the encourager, where I get to be the person who gets to be the light to them in that kind of moment, where all of a sudden I'm essentially reciting Bible verses to them, even though I'm not giving them references, helping them understand their calling and helping them understand their purpose in it so that they're not giving up. And mind you, we're only six weeks into this program.

And so God, I can already see how God has a purpose in that and how he's using it. And wherever it goes next, I can already see that this was already the right move. So how many F-bombs have you got? You're, you're walking around, you're telling people you're a pastor, you're quoting scripture without quoting scripture. We live in Miami, which is by far like the opposite end of the Bible belt, at least in the general spectrum of call it Western civilization. So in a lot of, you know, Catholicism and things down, down here, down here in Miami with Latin culture. So, I mean, surely somebody has got to be upset, right? How have you kind of handled those, those conversations? You know, I've yet to run into one of those just yet because the program encourages diversity of thought points and viewpoints and that kind of thing across the board.

And so that's something that we've all kind of had to learn how to comment and accept. But the one thing that I always make sure and kind of recognize is the person who looks like they'd be furthest from like my standpoint or viewpoint, that's the person that I've chosen to befriend first, you know, just to make sure that people understand and know that I'm not going to push it away against them. In fact, as I was being interviewed for the program, you know, that, that was one of their concerns was, Hey, listen, we've welcomed people of different backgrounds. They were concerned that I would be the person who was most antagonistic towards other viewpoints and thoughts. And, and I reassured them.

I said, listen, as a pastor and as a, and as a follower of Jesus, I'm called to love everybody, everybody, meaning the person who is furthest from me on any kind of landscape, that's the person that I'm called to love. And so, and to be, and to make sure and accept them as an individual, not necessarily for what they do, but as an individual that they are accepted with me. And so, you know, I believe, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of my classmates would say that they felt that way around me because I've not shied away from talking to anybody about anything. It doesn't matter if they curse around me. It doesn't matter if they say anything around me. It doesn't matter what they do. And it's not, it's not really been a point of contention as of yet, thank God.

But even if it was, it would be one of those things where God's called me to be a light here. So my job is not to be right. My job is not to prove a point. My job is to be Jesus to these folks, which means to love my neighbor as myself as best as I can. And loving my neighbor as myself right now means I am the chief encourager in this program that I have to pursue excellence as best as possible because Jesus shines bright when I do. And then at every moment, I need to make sure and just be, I'm supposed to be the thermostat in the room. I'm called to be the guy who lifts everybody up as best as I can. So that's where I'm at. So tell me, you've been doing pre-work for two years. You've been observing.

You got two more years to go. So you're going to be doing essentially four years, not solid four years, but four years of prep work getting into this. How did this start? What was the spark? Was it a, you know, and just like, was it a voice of God, like just clear idea? What was it, you know, a conversation with someone else that kind of sparked it? Like, you know, so many people hear it differently. And I'm not mocking this in any way. I'm just curious, like, what was that, that initial process from, okay, I got a solid job here to, well, dang it, I'm going to have to go back to school and start from scratch. So what, what was the catalyst? Yeah. So 2017 was a rough year in many different ways.

2017 was Jeff Reed's last year at Christ Fellowship, first of all. Yeah, I know it was rough for me. It was rough for me because one of the reasons why I went to go be digital pastor was to work with Jeff. And so there were a lot of shifts in our organization. There was a lot of tough things. And one of the things that I was wondering was if it was a time, a time of shift for myself. And I'd been praying through and thinking through a lot of different areas and a lot of possibilities. I'd even taken a look outside of our organization, wondering, hey, maybe this is time for me to leave. Maybe it's time for me to make a shift in that kind of light. And I was getting ready to leave on vacation with my family, my parents, my sister, my brother-in-law and my wife and kids.

We're all going to Canada and on vacation. And just before we got on the plane, my dad and I, we were having a conversation and he saw that I was kind of fielding emails and different possibilities from different folks for job opportunities. And he looked at me and he was like, great, you know, I'm glad that you have all these opportunities in front of you. But I always wondered what it would be like if you actually pursued medicine like you wanted to before you jumped into ministry, because I actually think you would have been really good at it. And that thought planted a seed in me for the rest of the trip that bothered me. Like no tomorrow. Like that was that minute conversation, five, 10 minutes, whatever it was, planted a seed in me that bothered me the entire trip.

I mean, I had a great trip. I had a great vacation, but it bothered me to the point where I started asking my wife about it. Like we're there looking at Niagara Falls and I was like, hey, you know, dad had this conversation with me and it's just lodged in my mind. I can't, I can't let this go. And she was like, and she was like, nah, that's, are you serious? Like, that sounds crazy. Like you're looking at like all these opportunities, like, you know, you're an internet pastor, you enjoy doing that and you're having some fun with that. And what, you know, like, are you sure you really want to take a look at this? And I was like, well, I at least want to pray through it. I at least want to pray through seeing where we go.

Prayer led to conversations. Conversations led to me visiting, uh, uh, Lauren and I agreeing that, hey, I need to go visit a school and talk to an advisor. Talking to an advisor led to registering for courses. Registering for courses led to me showing up for class, which led to me to, I hate to say it like this, like the smoking gun of, okay, now I got to start taking exams. Am I actually going to be good at this or not? And then that led to A's. A's led to hardship and studying. And it just kept cascading on and on and on. And the first time that I went to apply, I actually got a no. No kidding. I don't think I knew that. So this is what happened. The first time I went to apply, um, or the first time I went to talk with an advisor, I received the list of classes that I needed to take.

When I went to apply, I had all my classes, straight A's and everything like that. And they were like, hey, you're short three classes. And I said, are you serious? And they said, yes. And this was heartbreaking, but it was crushing for us because it had been like a year that we were kind of prepping up to this, you know? And, uh, and so we were at a crossroads and we had to decide where we were really dedicated to this, that we're willing to wait an extra year and to go through the process and go through more classes and this kind of thing. Or was this going to be it? Were we going to give up and then look at anything and everything else? And we prayed through it and we decided, hey, we're going to stick with it.

And so sure enough, we did. And then a year and change later, uh, I got accepted to the program. I mean, this was, uh, and mind you, that was hard. Oh my gosh, that was so hard. I was so heartbroken. I remember that week distinctly. It felt like somebody like legit, you know, pulled my, my heart out of my chest and like threw it on the floor. But I knew that if it hurt that bad, that it meant something that much more, that it wasn't just a passing thought, that this wasn't just an alternative plan or a plan B, that this was something so much more, that this was something that I really, really wanted to pursue. And so, and, and I could feel that my, and my, and my wife, Lauren and everybody else.

And so we just kept going with it. And mind you, that wasn't an easy thing because I was still pursuing excellence at my job at Christ Fellowship. I was still a hundred percent at Christ Fellowship in terms of doing, you know, church online and doing digital and doing things like the church digital here. Uh, you know, all of that mattered to me in a big way, but I knew that this was the direction that God had to call me in. And I already had great examples in my life. My dad made a shift in career two times during his life. He was, you know, he had an accounting firm, sold that off to go be a CFO and left that again to go be a CFO at another place. And so those were some shifts that I had, I had examples of people doing that in my life, you know?

Um, so this was one of those things where I had seen God do this before in the lives of individuals. It was just my turn. And shoot, I got to watch Jeff Reed do it. Jeff Reed left being an online pastor to starting this amazing thing. That's the church digital. And he's soared to the highest of heights. Well, actually he's not at the highest of heights yet because he's going to keep breaking through these molds and keep going up. So it's going to be great. You know, I, I can, and I think I may have said this on the podcast, but I can honestly tell you the biggest fight. My wife and I were coming up actually by the time this place will celebrated our 22nd wedding anniversary. Um, and so excited about that, um, coming up here back very soon.

Now, but I can honestly tell you the biggest fight that we've had in 22 years was the day, uh, that I officially announced that I was leaving Christ fellowship, uh, like with, with the staff, with the leadership there. And, and my wife had already known, like we already talked about it. We had prayed about it. We had, we had a piece about it, but it was, it was this, this just brash reality of, okay, it's really happening. And, and it's like, where, where's the paycheck? Where's the, how, how are we doing this? What's the plan? I don't know what the plan is. God didn't tell me where I'm supposed to go. He just told me where I'm not supposed to be. And, uh, and, and so, and it's hard, like we were at peace at it.

And, and fortunately, you know, once that slap hits and not physically slap, I'm not abusive to my wife. Come on people. But just the, the reality of it, um, I mean, things, things got back, but it was, it was hard for us for, for a minute because it's like, okay, do we, I mean, I just, uh, a biblical parallel. Yeah. Peter made that first step on the water and then he saw the wave. Then he saw the wave coming and, and he doubted. And for us that, that was it. It was okay. We're going to make it on the water. God's calling us out there. Holy cow. Would you look at the size of that? And, and we're, we're sinking. Um, have you guys, and, and I'm going to ask a little bit. A little personal question here, but have, have you experienced that yet?

You and the family in this, what, what does that look like? Oh yeah. Yeah. We had, we had a moment like that a couple of weeks ago. Um, basically like we had saved, you know, for years as far as like what some of the financial hardships were going to be. And we found out recently a couple of weeks ago that one of our bills, uh, was about to double. And so that led to a lot of tension, um, in our relationship, you know, uh, in terms of, well, wow, we knew that this was going to be hard, but we didn't know it was going to be this hard. Um, and so that led to, you know, some tension that was there and we had to walk it through and we had to talk it out and, and eventually it got resolved and, you know, it makes us dig in a little bit more, but that's just a minute example of a financial hardship that just came along.

It kind of knocked this around and it's easy to say that you're trusting God, but it's another thing that like you're saying, Jeff, when all of a sudden, when the rubber meets the road and when you're in the midst of it and, and all of a sudden now you're walking on the tight rope without a net, essentially, you know? And yes, we can tell people that God's got them, but it's not until you're in the thick of it that you really start to feel it. It's funny because a lot of folks will allude that to just church planning as if like, oh, that's like the only time that you can feel like you're really trusting in God. But the reality is, is for some of us that are pursuing different areas of ministry, there's a lot of different times that we got to trust God that are hard for everybody who's ever started a business, for everybody who's ever done that.

You know that there's that moment of fear where you make that initial jump, where you don't have, like what Jeff's saying, where you don't have that secure paycheck behind you. And that is a frightening, frightening way. For those of us that you're like me, you're going back to school, you're making a severe shift in career. And listen, a lot of my classmates, they're, they're wives or husbands with kids, you know? So this, and they don't have, we don't have time for a nine to five. So that means that we're relying on our spouse and whatever savings we got to make due for these next two and a half years. Yeah, sure. Is, is there finance on the other side of this? Absolutely. That's fine. But in this time, that's hard.

And that, and having, and wrestling with that kind of tension, that can be very, very difficult. Uh, it has been difficult. And it, and mind you, I would be naive to think that that kind of conversation is not going to come up again. You know, you, you talk about how doubting, uh, happens a lot with, with planners by the, by the way, like if you're, uh, people who are running their own business entrepreneurial, uh, I mean, we're famous for, we're the greatest thing ever. We are the worst thing ever. Um, you know, we can do anything. I can't do anything right. Like the, the, the sign wave pattern that, that becomes the emotional ride and coming from a guy that started for business, maybe a fifth, like it's, it's crazy.

The, the emotional wave, almost the spiritual wave, especially if you're walking with God in, in that season. Um, but it, and it's interesting. It brings up a question specifically for you. So, so you're out of a church staffing realm. Do you consider yourself right now out of ministry? Like you as a person, what, what do you consider what you're doing now? I, you know, it's funny, Eric Geiger had a quote about this, uh, years ago and one of his messages, and I remember him saying this, and I think it's hit me more in recent times. He said that when he went to go work for a church, he left the ministry, that the people who are working a secular nine to five, that they're the ones who are actually in ministry.

That is the job of the pastors to equip people to do the work of the ministry. So I actually feel like I'm more in ministry now than I was when I worked for a church. Now, I know some of you are thinking, well, you know, Ray, you're talking about, you know, schematics and you're really playing around with words and some of this stuff. But the reality of it is, is that I've got more impact here with non-believers than the guy standing on the stage, speaking to a thousand folks on a Sunday, just being realistic. I mean, you can sit here and you can tell me that, but majority of those folks think that they know Jesus. These people do not, and they know it. So I'm, who's having more impact? And that's, this isn't a competition.

It's just the reality of, hey, I've got to go be the light to these people. That is where God has called me to be. I am on the mission field. And mind you, the workplace is the modern day mission field here in the United States. Like if you're looking for it, it's a nine to five out there working with folks who don't know Jesus or who consider themselves culturally Christian, but they haven't been discipled by anybody. They're not actively in a faith relationship with Christ where they're growing. None of that's happening. And so mind you, I consider myself to be more in ministry today than I was a few months ago when I was working for a church, not to bash what anybody who works for a church does.

It's just, your job is to equip people to do the work of the ministry. I put that aside to step into the ministry, which is something very, very different. And, you know, for better or worse, like this isn't something where we take a break and we pray for each other in the middle of class. Like this isn't that kind of school. This isn't seminary. This isn't that. This is working with folks from all walks of life, from all sorts of backgrounds, from all sorts of religions, creeds, countries, whatever, sexual orientations, you know, influence, all that stuff, just to get a chance to be the light of Christ to them. That's an opportunity that I think I have now that I didn't have when I was working for a church.

And I said the same thing when I worked at the Apple store while I was at seminary. And I was actually very grateful for that job because that kept me conscious of the fact that the rest of my life was in a Christian bubble. Outside of that bubble, when I was going to seminary, when I was living on campus, outside of that bubble, what I had at the Apple store, interacting with regular people who don't believe in Jesus, who have, and the only understanding that they're getting of Christians is what they're seeing on the news or what they're seeing on television or what they're hearing Christians don't want them to do. This was prior to gay marriage being legalized. And all they heard was a lot of, we don't want you to be able to do this.

We don't want you to be able to do that. Or we don't like you at all is kind of how it was interpreted. So to have a Christian around them who they knew cared about them, who they knew loved them, who didn't compromise, didn't compromise his stance or his thought, his thought process on things, but really showed to them that, Hey, we can think two different things, but I can still love you. That was the big win. And there's a part, there's a big part of that, Jeff, that I really missed because when I went back to go work for a church, guess what? A lot of that went away and I was surrounded by church folks every day. And the reality is, is that's not reality. That's not, that's not life. And so, you know, many times when we begin wondering, well, how is our church impacting the community?

You'd be surprised how much Christianese or how much of our own cultural stuff that we kind of just dig into that we forget how to talk to people who don't know Jesus. And I had to break free of that again. You know, so much of social media right now is filled with echo chamber and you surround yourself with people who think like you, who are like you, and you just start to continue to surround yourself and exclude yourself from it. I've even had a pastor in my life tell me, speaking of the church, we are to be an island isolated and separated from. And it's 2021. I don't, I don't, I don't think we can do that. I don't think God calls us to that. I think culturally, if we want to impact people today, it's not to be an island and it's not exclusionary.

It's inclusion in doing what you're doing right now about being involved and being relationally connecting. Yeah. Theology may drive us to a place of a different viewpoint, but there's still ways for us to love on people and relationally connect to people, even if we have a different viewpoint. And on that, you know, because we use words in churches and things like this, like intentional. It's got to go beyond just handing an invite to an individual. Like you have to know and understand somebody's motivations and what drives them and what they, what they care about. And they've got to know what you care about. And then you got to have a genuine sense of relationship. Like it can't just be a one-sided relationship of, Hey, I want you to come check out my thing or I want you to come to my church.

It's no, I care about you. Like if you weren't here, I would be different. But because you're here, I am who I am. Like there has to be an impact there. And, and that to me has really been something that I enjoy having back. Let me ask this here at Ed Stadia. Like we work with all different types of churches. There, there's more structured, there, there's more organic, you know, Ray, we've had conversations with, uh, with giga churches, with multi-site churches, uh, with church planters, just starting out, micro church, house church, micro location, watch party. Uh, you know, in, in recently I've, I've started pulling the thread of Bivo Covo, helping people get on personal mission, uh, you know, pastors who are working.

Do you consider yourself a church? Is, is the goal to produce a church service? Is the goal to relationally connect organically? Like what, what does this look like for you? What are you thinking? No, no, really what I, what I kind of see myself as right now and, you know, forgive me if I misuse in the term, but I kind of see myself as a missionary to these folks. Um, that's, that's kind of how I see myself, um, you know, that God placed me in a mission field here and my job's not to start a church, but my job's to be the church here as much as I can, you know, and, and that's kind of what I see myself as, um, you know, within that, you know, is there a possibility like down the road in terms of.

Making more impact. Absolutely. Uh, prior to this, when I was going, uh, when I was doing refreshing some of my courses, you know, to make myself available to apply. One of the things I did while I was at Christ Fellowship is I started a group for medical healthcare professionals. I started a small group and I could see on the other side of this about like pretty much how I'm going to have to like do some of that again, because I'm going to tell you folks, like just full discretion, like talking to medical healthcare professionals coming out of COVID, especially so many of them are discouraged. Like there's a lot of PTSD there. There's a lot of discouragement, uh, just because of what they had to face, the lack of support that they got, people thinking that this was a hoax or that it wasn't real.

And then, you know, that kind of thing, like that, that's heavy discouragement. Imagine fighting a war and nobody believes that your war is real or not nobody, but a lot of people are sitting there telling you like, oh, we don't believe that this is real and you're trying to help them and you're trying to defend them. And so that's kind of what the medical healthcare community dealt with over the last, you know, a year and change and that's rough. And so really by the time I graduate, I'm going to have to help shepherd a lot of those folks. They're going to need a pastor. And so whether it's not going to be official church, there is going to be a lot of discipleship going on there. It's interesting separating, separating the pastor from the, the idea of, and you use the term missionary and there, I mean, there, there's probably some, some, some truth to that.

Uh, and then you're funneling it back, connecting into a, to a church for, for discipleship or for, for relationship, or even just building that out on yourself. It's an interesting strategy. Well, this is the thing. Shepherding is a gift. It's not, it's not just a position. It's a gift, right? And I actually think that I have a shepherding gifting. And so, you know, you can, you know, call that whatever it is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to speak on a stage in order to shepherd people. So the way that I, the way that I could best do that and the way that I, that I saw the master do it in the gospels is in the one-on-one. Jesus' best shepherding work happens with his disciples.

It doesn't happen in front of the crowds. When he takes Peter aside, when he takes James aside, when he does those things with them, those are the moments that we tend to lean in the most. And so in the same way, I honestly can see myself trying to be the best version of me following Jesus in that world, not by getting up on the stage and talking. I've done that. Jeff, you saw me do that. That was fine. Yeah. By the way, Ray preaching is really excited, Ray. Ray is very calm when he's on the podcast. Ray preaching on a pulpit is super excited, like drank way too many energy drinks, bouncing off the walls, Ray. And he's, he's right. He's much better on the one-on-one. If I can find the link to you preaching, Ray, somewhere in the interwebs, I may include it.

I don't even think I could probably find it online. I've hidden them all. I hit them all. I hit them all when I was digital pastor. But it's not energy drinks. It's Cuban coffee for those of you who aren't schooled in Miami lingo. But yeah, the big thing though is, is, is always going to be impact. Messages. And mind you, this is coming from church online. Messages have their place and they have their impact. The larger impact, whenever you talk to individuals, doesn't simply just come from a message. God sends somebody in their path to guide them along the way spiritually. Like, yes, the preacher has an impact. I'm not taking anything away from that. But when you talk to a lot of folks, the bigger impact has been on the individuals in their life that God puts along the way.

There's always been somebody there to encourage them, to pray for them, to talk to them, to be, to just be an ear. Those are the, those are the things that we just can't forget. And especially for those of us who are in paid ministry, listen, you need to understand the impact that you have in terms of the one-on-one with individuals. And then you also need to take a step out of your front door, go across the street to your literal neighbor, not just the love your neighbor thing, like your literal neighbor, and just talk to them and get some perspective about their life and find out what's different. You know, we hear all the time about how America is becoming de-churched and unchurched and all these things.

And that's because we worry about getting these people into buildings as opposed to just going to where they're at. For me, God's called me back into the workplaces. You know where people spend two-thirds of their life? Two-thirds of their life, man. It's insane. They're spending a minute at work. It's ridiculous. You know, like we spend so much time there. We spend more time at work with some of our coworkers than we do with most of our family. And so why not be the light there? Do you remember the, this may be going back a couple of decades, but there was a movement to be third place, like first place is home, second place is work. And the church was like, Hey, we want to be third place. We want our buildings, our property.

We want people hanging out with us. And that was like the open to the Christian bookstores. And I used to own a Christian bookstore. So I can take that shot. Or it was, you know, open up the coffee house and, and let's try to get people on our property as much as possible so they can see Jesus in us. In 2022 or 2021, at least, if you want people to see Jesus, um, go, go to where they are in the workplace and, and, you know, what, what Ray's doing. And so much of recently, I just, I feel myself being burdened by this idea of personal mission rather than, and I've said it here on the podcast, rather than one man exuding his spiritual gift in front of thousands. Let's get thousands of people to exude their spiritual gifts in front of 10 people, 20 people, 50 people, a hundred people in front of their circle of influence in front of the people that God's already got in their lives.

Not, not an invest and invite to get them to the place to come listen to a 40 minute sermon from some stranger they don't know, but literally be the gospel, share the gospel, share with people who know you, uh, and, and would be interested in that. And so Ray's approach here of, of building the relationship, sacrificing, going back to school to learn this job, to do this thing that doesn't, so that he can meet people who don't know Jesus for the purpose of sharing with Christ. This is, this is beautiful. This is hard. This is sacrificial, uh, but this is rewarding, um, at the kingdom level. So man, I, I'm, I'm proud of you. I'm, I'm excited for, for what, for what you're doing. And this is going to be, uh, I'm, I'm excited to see what, what God does in and through this.

I mean, I'll be honest with you. Like it was, um, and it's still like, uh, so once again, kind of going back to like God's call and all this stuff, it's, uh, to be, to be, you know, fully honest, it's still scary. Like on a regular basis, you know, like this program is difficult. It's not easy. Uh, um, it requires a lot of sacrifice. It requires a lot of hours. Um, you know, the sacrifices that my entire family had to make for the shift, you know, I'm, I'm at home less, uh, you know, and we haven't even started like the harder, the hardest parts of it. The hardest parts are to come in the fall and the spring. Um, and you know, some of you would know, and actually shout out to Justin Nava. He was actually a great resource for this because his wife went through this program over there in Texas.

Um, that first year is what we call didactic year. And so it's all just intense, almost like medical school, like crammed down to two and a half to two years, you know? And so like, that's like the first portion. So there's a lot of stressful stuff that we're going through on this side. So I don't want to make it seem like it's all sunshine and roses on this plate. Just like for pastors who have stepped into real estate, listen, they got to study to get licensed. And then they've got to go through the fun of starting a business and going out there on their own and, and, and go through the hardship of finding clients and selling. Like that's, none of that is easy. So for those of you who think, oh man, this is cloud nine.

This is the easy stuff. No, many of us are choosing the hard. This is difficult. I want to make that very clear. This is difficult. We just believe that the reward is greater on the other side, both spiritually and other wise. We see the potential for something much bigger in terms of making kingdom impact. So that's, and this is just what my personal calling was. Whatever your personal calling may be, embrace the difficulty of that. Any, any regrets? What are you missing at this point from maybe like your church staff role? Is, is there any, any, any regrets, any negatives you've, you've experienced? I'm sure there are, but what, what, what are you comfortable sharing? And the biggest thing is that I miss the camaraderie of like the people that I worked with, you know, I have great camaraderie over here at the school, but you know, the relationships that, that I built there over time were great.

And I became a pastor to many of them, you know, while I was there behind the scenes. I think one of the biggest, darkest secrets behind church doors is how under ministered many of the church staff feel. And that's in multiple churches. And so, you know, for, for many, I was able to kind of fill in that void for them. And so, you know, I genuinely miss some of them. We text, we phone call, but of course it's not the same. You don't kind of talk in the same kind of way when you see each other in the hallways. And when you have those kinds of relationships on a regular basis on the other side, I mean, I actually wish I would have started this sooner. And I think that's even more of a confirmation of it.

You know, I think one day, and don't hold me to this, but one day I may write a book called Misdiagnosed, both a play on like the medical side and a play on the ministry side, because I actually think that this could have been my calling all along, but, but I actually had somebody in my life tell me that, no, no, no. If you're called to ministry, like you go to seminary, you become a pastor. That's the thing that you do. And that's not the case for so many folks. Like I said, that's to equip people to go into the ministry. For many of us, our calling is something different. Many of you, if you're a pastor, some of you may even be feeling that tension right now. It's not that you're, it's not that you're in sin.

It's that you know that this isn't the thing that you want to make an impact with. That's all it is. You want to make an impact in a different way. Could be like me through medicine. It could be through business. It could be through real estate. It could be through so many different ways. Could be through the creative arts. I'm not sure, but you know that God has gifted you to make an impact in many different ways and to reach out to non-believers within this specific field. Go to it. I actually talked to a pastor, and this is funny. This makes me feel old all the time. He was actually a student in my youth ministry. And then God called him into ministry. And while he was serving in ministry, he felt the same kind of nudge.

He went back to school. And now he's planted a church here in Miami. And at the same time, he is a professor at a secular college here in the city. And he's doing both. And he will always want to do both. He doesn't want to take a full-time salary from his church, even though it's growing. He wants to continue to do both because he sees the impact that he is having at the school. That's amazing. Now, that's not everybody's calling, but that is his. And he followed the thread. I don't mind him following that thread. There's an increasing number of people. What's interesting is, and I would call it a trend at this point. I think there's a trend of people that are walking away from full-time staff ministry with a passion and a desire to relationally connect with people in the business world, in the secular world, in the world outside of the four walls of the church.

And how best to do that is reaching people in the second place in the business. I'm thinking Austin Abney, who's with LifePoint up in the Carolinas. And he's a microchurch pastor through the church. And he's now working towards real estate and doing that. Stephen Smith, another guy down at First Baptist Houston, was director of campuses. And now he is doing the same thing with the real estate. Jared Hughes, one of the largest, a digital pastor, one of the largest digital-only churches in America, Hope City Church, has talked very vocally about having multiple jobs, even on a podcast with us, talking about how he and his wife have multiple jobs. Not, say, to take pressure off the church to fund them, but, B, to give them relational equity with people for the purpose of building relationships pointing to Christ.

And so, it's very much a different perspective. Even in context, Stephen Pike, Dave Ferguson, we seem to be having a lot of these conversations lately about how maybe what a pastor is, is maybe evolving a little bit different from the guy that's not managing an experience or managing a process. Through this COVID season, maybe there's a little more awareness to, hey, there needs to be relationships in there. And it's not just inclusionary. It's not just reaching the 99. It's building relationships with people who are far from Christ. Reaching out and helping find individual ones to go along with the organizational ones. So, Ray, you're doing a great job setting an example here. I don't know yet.

I think I'm just trying. But I do hope that more pastors, more church leaders, rather than asking your high-level volunteers to leave their secular roles to come join your staff, why not empower them more to do more where they're at? That's what I'm hoping for the future. Because I remember on staff, we would have these high-level, these brilliant people. We'd be like, oh, man, would you please come join us on staff? But that's kind of the opposite of what we really want to do if we really want to reach the city. If we want to make an impact, no, stay where you're at. You can't make as much of an impact coming to work within the four walls of the church. You just can't. It's not the same. And so, I'm hoping we empower them more to do that.

And that's really the challenge because the church has to let go of their brand, their vision, what they're trying to produce. If they're going to be effective on equipping people on personal mission. Ray, you made a great campus pastor, physical campus pastor. If you ask me honestly, I think you made a better digital pastor than a campus pastor. I may be biased. Yeah, you're welcome. But at the end of that, hey, you know what? I've got to let go of you because your personal mission, where you feel God leading you, is in a different area. And that's not a negative. That's not like, well, crap, I lost Ray. Let's cross him off and maybe we'll hear from him again. But he's on his own because he's not within the church.

Really, I think it's the church's job to empower their people on personal mission to get out and do these things. The real question, I think, for the church is, how do we encourage Ray? How do we equip Ray? How do we hold Ray accountable? How can we help him on his journey instead of ignoring him at this point? Because, oh, it's outside of what is normally established as the four walls of what our church is. If we keep inclusionary, and this is not digital physical here. If we keep inclusionary towards what happens in our building and ignore what's happening outside, we will continue to lose effectiveness. And it's people like Ray at this point, men and women that are being brave, walking away, not because they're annoyed with church and they're disillusioned and they're frustrated with ministry, but they feel that ministry is dragging them, that ministry is taking them, that ministry is allowing them to reach people outside of the walls.

That's the goal of where we need to be. Yeah, and I want to be very clear about that. I've never been happier or more excited about the mission of the local church. That's kind of the other thing. This isn't somebody leaving because they're disillusioned with church. No, no, no. This is because I love Jesus. I'm going out there. That's honest to God the truth. The other thing is, Jeff, because I want to see that happen more often than not. And I'm hoping that this eventually takes a spin on student ministry. I hope that eventually we start talking to our students on, hey, listen, before you go off to college, why don't you start thinking about, because you're going to start making decisions for the rest of your life, how you're going to use your career, your said career path to impact people for the mission of Christ.

That it starts that early on, that we start integrating it. Like, yes, you could be called to be a nurse, a lawyer, you know, a business person, a whatever, you know, a coder. And leverage that for the sake of the gospel. Leverage that. Ah, but, you know, I'm not called to be a pastor. Exactly. That's my point. You're not called to be a pastor. That's fine. You're called to be whatever it is that you're called to be, but that's still your holy calling. God has gifted you. He's given you an affinity for it. You're excited about it. It's something that gets you up in the morning. It's something that you deal with all the time. How are you going to leverage that for the sake of the gospel? I had a pastor.

I'm not able to tell you his name because he asked me not to disclose it publicly. He is a lead pastor of a church in Iran. And this pastor told me, Hey, Jeff, you know what the biggest problem with Christians in Iran is? And because I'm forever a student, I just asked him, Yeah, I would love to know what's the biggest problem with Christians in Iran. And his answer was, they all want to be Levi. They all want to be priests. They all want to be pastors. Christians in Iran don't understand yet what it is to be a Christian in the workplace. For many reasons, by the way, because Christians in the workplace tend to get you killed when you're in Iran. And so they haven't figured out the formula yet, because if you're baptized, like they have authority in the Iranian government to kill you.

That's kind of a thing. But they don't, they don't know how this, and it's amazing how I'll maybe argue some of that's relative, where, where we try to drive people. Thank you, Eric Geiger. We try to drive people to the point of, Hey, the ultimate Christian is the one who's on church staff. And, and honestly, and coming from a guy with 15 years church staff experience, I don't, I don't, it's not ministry. Like the opportunities to do ministry, the opportunities to impact people are not the ones who are paid Christians. It's not the professional Christians. It's the people who are out there. And so if you're in, and I would love to even just wrap on this, but if you're thinking about this, let's keep that dialogue going.

You're going to hear a lot more on this from the church digital podcast and some others coming. But Ray, let me ask this as, as we're, you know, landing the plane here, what somebody's thinking about this. Somebody's listening to this podcast and, and it's eating away at them. Like your dad's conversation over at the Niagara Falls kind of ate away at you for a while. What advice would you give them? What's, what's the next step? Coach them through a little bit here. First thing I would do for sure. And, and for many of you in ministry kind of know kind of the path that I'm going to take you down. So first thing you would do, you should do is you should pray about it. You need to pray about it.

It's a very spiritual conversation. It's got to start there. It's, it's something that has to start with the Lord. You feel like God's calling you out before you make a shift like that, especially for those of you who are leading families. Like this isn't like an overnight kind of a shift. This is something that's going to cost everybody something. And nobody's guaranteed that this is going to work out. I want to be very clear about that. That's the part of following Jesus, right? So Jeff alluded to Peter walking on water. He didn't know this was going to work out and neither do you. So you got to start there. Next thing you want to do is you want to start talking to people in your life that you trust.

And depending on how you go about this, I wouldn't talk to anybody on staff. I would actually talk to people outside that you trust, whether it's a pastor outside of your church staff, because you're not trying to set off any red flags. You're praying through something. You are praying through something. You're not trying to let anybody know that you made a decision that you're leaving or anything like this. You are praying through something. You are considering something that God is calling you to do. And so I would definitely, you know, talk to people in your life that can make an impact in that way. You know, Jeff, for me, was one of those people along the way. I had other people in my life like David Lopez, Pastor Bill Baggett, David Uribe, other people, you know, that God had surrounded me with that I could have conversations with, you know, and kind of, you know, share some of my thoughts, my fears, you know, the things that I enjoy, the things that I don't enjoy about what I was doing in ministry, the kind of impact that I wanted to make.

And asking the hard questions, like whether or not it was realistic, or whether this was just kind of a passing phase, you know, or this is some kind of midlife crisis kind of a thing or something else, you know, but you need somebody to challenge you and to ask you the hard questions along the way, just because you want to make sure that it's genuine. And the next thing is, is your spouse has to be on board. Like, you can't just go making this decision without the family being on board. Like, this is a choice that all of you have to own. And Lauren owns this decision. And Lauren is my chief encourager. Let me tell you, my wife is my chief encourager throughout this entire process. And that's not just me blowing smoke.

She has been the one to tell me, hey, like, do you feel like you need to go back and study? Then get back in there and study. You know, she's been the person to help keep me accountable for some of that stuff. And did hardship still come? Rewind a couple of minutes ago in the podcast when I just told you about how one of our bills doubled. And, you know, we had to fight through that. And at the same time, we had to apologize. We had to come back to each other and say, okay, what's the mission? What are we doing? Where are we going? Are we both on board with this? Are we both going to own this decision? Then yes, we are both owning this decision. This is not just a Ray thing. This is not just a Lauren thing.

This is an us thing. And we are together with this as a team. And so for sure, talk to God, talk to others, talk to your spouse if you're married and make sure that there's ownership along the way. And then, you know, kind of following up with Frozen 2, the best advice I can do is do the next right thing. Take the next step. Well played. I'm like singing Let It Go in my head. I'm like, what? Frozen 2? What are the songs in Frozen 2? Okay, well done. Yes, Frozen 2. Do the next right thing. You know, take the next step. Maybe it's registering for a course. Maybe it's, you know, going to a seminar, you know, within the kind of thing. And see if the thread keeps pulling. See if it's something that keeps on encouraging you and luring you in.

But don't ignore the curiosity completely. After you've done the other things, don't go explore the curiosity before you talk to your spouse. No, no, no, no, no. That's a dangerous thing to do. You want to have full, clear conversations along the way because there needs to be transparency because with transparency comes trust. And there's a lot of trust that's needed to shift your family in such a large way. So my advice, have the trust first and then go and start to tug on the curiosity. And, you know, one of my favorite quotes from Disney, I'm going to botch this. One of my favorite quotes from Walt Disney is that, you know, we're going to keep being curious. We're going to keep moving down new pathways and we're going to find out where that curiosity takes us.

And we're going to keep moving forward. And you'd be surprised where you can end up if you would just continue to follow that curiosity and find out, like, how much God can take you down a path where you're used in ways that you never really thought possible. And it's not talking on stage in front of a conference in front of thousands of people. It's talking in a boardroom with five or six people or talking with one person who doesn't know Jesus. That's what it's about. Awesome. So, hey, we're going to wrap here. We're not ending the conversation, though. Coming up in the next podcast, we're going to bring in Brandon Arndt, who is actually the digital pastor that Ray's been mentoring and growing, who's like brand new at the job.

Two months in literally drinking from the fire hydrant in the middle of being a physical church, going back to the physical building, feeling the tension of physical digital while figuring out all the new stuff in a very high pressure environment. So why not bring him into a podcast with him and let him bear his deepest, darkest secrets and crucial sins and things? No, I'm kidding. Well, maybe. We'll see how it goes. He's going to be better than I was. He's going to be much better. He is going to be awesome. I can't wait for Brandon to join us on the podcast and really for you guys to get to know him. But really, he's going to take CF to a lot of great places. And so I'm really happy for what he's going to do.

So looking forward to that conversation coming up in the next podcast. But for now, we're going to land a plan and call it done for Ray. By the way, let's say it, Ray's not going anywhere. He's going to be involved in the Church Digital as much as possible. Let's just say I wasn't paying him anyway. And so, hey, he's doing something else. Well, I'm still not paying him. We're just having fun. $3.95. Yeah, we're just doing it while we're doing it. But for Ray, this is Jeff with the Church Digital and Stadia Church Planning. Thanks for jumping on the podcast here. And we'll see you next time at the show. Y'all have a good day.