EP218: Dave Ferguson, Digital Missionaries, & the Power of Shared Experiences

The second thing they said, when they asked our friends, our neighbors, who would you most likely talk to about spiritual things? They said someone who listens without judgment. And secondly, they said someone who will allow me to draw my own conclusions. And this is just another one of those great reminders that our neighbors and our friends, whether it's literally next door, like Ray and Nikki, or it's digitally next door, they're not projects, they're people. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Through this podcast, we'll talk about the technological innovations within the church. But more than tech for tech itself, we'll address deeper questions. Is disciple making possible digitally? How should we approach the digital mission field?

Can a biblically grounded church operate in digital space? Oh, and where does the metaverse fit into all this? Whether you're a big or small church, an established church, or a startup church plant, the Church Digital's goal is to help churches like yours learn to be a multiplying church, digitally and physically. Our heart? That churches like yours will discover a newfound focus on disciple making that will revolutionize your church. And now, here's your host, Jeff Reed. All right. Hey, we got episode 218 here. This is Jeff with the Church Digital Podcast, Digital Church Network, New Thing, Leadership Network, and so, so many other fun things. By the way, you see, I've gotten some jokes down at the bottom, all my little graphics.

You know, one time I was like, every company that ever worked for, I wanted to like put a tattoo on my back. And, you know, I've got a broad back, and so, like, I just had that idea. But people have jokingly said my icons across the bottom here look like NASCAR. You like the bumper stickers on the back of a NASCAR, and it's cool. These are, you know, forward-facing organizations that are thinking about digital differently. And, by the way, we'd love to work and add more to that commercial over. Okay, so we are excited here about 218 and what's coming up here with the podcast. Now, we're doing something a little different with this podcast. You know, typically we do, like, an interview one-on-one type format or bring a couple people in.

But through Digital Church Network, you may not realize this, we've been doing some roundtables on Monday nights. Roundtables are an opportunity for us to bring in a guest or a couple different guests and really do a deep dive, an introspective look on something. But instead of me coming up with the questions, it becomes far more conversational as we try to get to answers together. It's more of a collaborative type of conversation where we're literally listening to other people talk other than just me and the guests. And that's actually what we got to do with this podcast coming up. We had the opportunity to bring Dave Ferguson into the conversation. Dave Ferguson is lead pastor, Community Christian Church.

He's the CEO of Exponential. He's the, I don't know what the word is, but the visionary leader for New Thing Network and Leadership Network. He's involved in that. Long story short, I think Dave Ferguson's my boss at least two times over. And to be honest, I would pretty much do anything he said anyway, because I just, and Dave Ferguson, we trust. And so we're bringing Dave Ferguson into this conversation here with the Roundtable through Digital Church Network and playing it back here on the podcast. Now, the fun thing is that I got to sit down with Dave and his brother, John. We did a podcast with John here within the past couple of weeks and really started to talk about their blessed practices.

This book came out in 2021 and the blessed practices, what it means to bless people. And it's this really innovative idea. It shouldn't be innovative, but it's innovative because it's not about inviting somebody to church. It's not even about just blatantly going up to someone and sharing with them about Jesus. It's about building a relationship, about engaging with them and through the relationship, learning about them and learning how to share with them about Jesus, learning how Jesus helps them and helping them develop and walk through this. It's beautiful. It's beautiful what's happening is we're seeing blessed practices work here in the physical space. And at least where I came into the conversation, I started asking myself, can we do this digitally?

Could you do blessed practices digitally? Begin with prayer, listen, eat together, serve people and share Jesus with them. That is what blessed practices looks like in the physical space. How do we do that digitally? And so we started that conversation with John Ferguson just a couple of weeks ago. You can go back to that podcast 216 to listen to that there. But now we got Dave Ferguson. Hey, Dave, what do you think about this digitally? And to be honest, I was surprised. I was, I'll say it, I was shocked at some of the ideas that were coming out of this. By the way, I don't know another nationally recognized church leader like Dave Ferguson, who is as supportive of digital and metaverse church as Dave Ferguson.

Incredible. And some of the insights that he shared in his willingness to support this next generation of churches is beautiful. And so if you're trying to think outside the box, if you're at all curious about what a digital missionary could look like, I would strongly suggest listen to this roundtable and join the conversation. We got Dave Ferguson, myself, Jeff with the church, digital, and so many other things. And I don't know, maybe 12, 15 other people joining in in the conversation here with this episode 218, Digital Missionaries and the Power of Shared Experience. Okay, everybody, here you go. I'm going to start kind of with my story. I mean, when I first became a Christ follower, I mean, I was like 19, 20 years of age and genuinely just so pumped, so excited about the love of God.

I think I got grace, like for the very first time. If you remember what that was like when you really understood grace for the very first time. And I mean, I want to share that with everybody. And I think maybe wired the way I am, I tried. But I have to say, I did it in the most obnoxious way possible. I remember, like, I would be, I would do street evangelism. I would walk straight up to people, basically verbally assault them. I don't know if you remember the two diagnostic questions. I would say, have you come to the place in your spiritual life where you know for certain if you die tonight, you'd go to heaven? And if they dare to answer that question, then I would assault them with another question.

And I'd say, and if you did die tonight, and God asks you, why should I let you in my heaven, what would you say? And basically what I was doing in kind of this approach was I was asking questions, answering questions, rather, that nobody was asking. And I was asking questions that they didn't want to answer. And basically it was a total disaster. Just didn't work. It was good motives, but just did not work. A few years later, I become a youth pastor. Then eventually at age 25, I become a church planner. And so I said, okay, you know what? Forget that. What I want to do is I want to just kind of live my life for Jesus. The other didn't work. I'm just going to live my life for Jesus. I'm going to try to live like him and not use words.

And the end result in my neighborhood was I think my neighbors thought I was a really good guy, but nobody came to know Jesus. And I just, for me, I felt like there had to be a better way. And I think now, even as a pastor then, I know not only did I want it for me, but I also wanted it for the people in my church. And for a very long time, I was, you know, familiar with Genesis chapter 12. I kind of call it the blessing strategy now where, you know, God speaking to Abraham, he said, listen, I'm going to bless you. I'm going to make your name great. You're going to be a blessing. And all the people on earth will be blessed through you. And God was basically saying, you know, I'm going to bless you and then you're going to bless the rest of the world.

And I think for a long time, I thought of that more as kind of a pithy saying, you know, you're blessed to be a blessing or like a bumper sticker or something you see crocheted on a pillow somewhere. Rather than really how to love your neighbor, how to change the world. But there was something that I ran across that made me kind of rethink that. And I don't know if John shared this or not. You can jump in here two weeks ago if you guys heard it. But I ran across this study called Blessers vs. Converters. I don't think you've heard me tell this or maybe John told it or not. But Blessers vs. Converters. It's actually, it was kind of buried in a doctoral thesis. And the study was based on two teams of missionaries that both went to Thailand.

And they went to Thailand with two distinctly different missional strategies. So, and what they had, there was what they, they literally called one group the Converters. And their sole intention was just to convert people, to evangelize people. And they would even say, we're trying to save souls back in the day. And then they had the second group was the Blessers. And their sole intention was just to bless people. And they would even say, we're just here to bless, just bless whoever God brings our way. They followed these two different teams of missionaries for two years. And they had two observations they discovered. First, they discovered that the Blessers, actually their presence in the community created a lot more what you'd call social capital.

It was a better, made it a better place to live, a better society, a better community life. Nothing. There was no measurable difference in regards to the difference the Converters made as far as social capital. That was the first observation. The second observation they made, though, and this was very surprising, was the Blessers, over two years, actually had 50 times as many conversions as did the Converters. That the Blessers actually saw 100 people, almost 100, not quite, but almost 100 people come to faith, you know, find and follow Jesus, versus the Converters, over the course of two years, had two. And kind of the bottom line on this study was that if you're trying to love your neighbor, if you're going to share the love of God with someone else, the best way, and the way they kind of coined it, was to be a blesser.

Now that, and I'll tell you what, I'll go ahead and throw, I was going to share my screen. I'll go ahead and share my screen here. I got some stuff, we'll just do that. Then I ran across this Barna research group did a study, and it was kind of an eye-opener that just kind of followed suit with this. And they asked people, that would be like our friends and neighbors, they said, what would you value in a person with whom you'd talk about spiritual matters? That was the question they asked them. What would you value in a person with whom you would dare to talk about spiritual matters? And here were the top three qualities that came up in order. The number one thing, they said this, I would value someone who would listen to me without judgment.

Someone who'd listen to me without judgment. And I would follow it up with, I think listening is one of the purest acts of love. And the sad news in this study was that two-thirds of the people that were surveyed said they had nobody in their life that they felt like listened to them without judgment. And I started thinking about some of my early attempts, okay, to share God's love. And my focus was always on what I would say, and so consequently, I did most of the talking. And if I did ask a question, the only reason I asked a question was not to actually listen, but it was so I could kind of maneuver the conversation in a way so I could respond with this clever answer. And I think, I genuinely think, maybe today more than ever in my lifetime, people need other people who will just listen to them, listen to their story.

And it's something we're all capable of doing. The second thing they said when they asked our friends, our neighbors, who would you most likely talk to about spiritual things? They said someone who'd listen without judgment. And secondly, they said someone who will allow me to draw my own conclusions. And this is just another one of those great reminders that our neighbors and our friends, whether it's literally next door, like Ray and Nikki, or it's digitally next door, they're not projects, they're people. And they're looking for someone who will not force a conclusion on them, but will trust them to have their own spiritual journey. It's the same way that God trusted us to have our own spiritual journey.

And again, when I think about my early failed attempts, okay, my heart was in a good place, but my strategy was just brutal, because I knew the outcome I wanted. I wanted them to say yes, I wanted a chance to baptize them that night. So it was good intentions, but poor tactics. The third quality they said they were looking for was they wanted someone who has confidence in sharing their own perspective. So after you, number one, listen to your friend, and secondly, after you give them the space to come to their own conclusion, it's then and only then that people around us are saying, okay, now I would like for you to confidently share your own perspective. And I just kind of call that paying the relational rent, that once you've invested in a relationship by listening to them and loving them, no matter what they ultimately decide, then you'll have a permanent place in their life.

And hopefully you'll have the opportunity to share your story about the difference that Jesus has made in your life with them. Now, for me, with that blessers versus converters kind of doctoral thesis, and then some of this research from Barna, I began to look at the life of Jesus. And what I discovered in his life in ministry, this really was his approach, that he did listen without judgment. In fact, if you go back to the Gospels, and some people have documented this too, I mean, there's about 50 questions he asks for every answer that he gives in the Gospels. He also allowed others to draw their own conclusions. Like, think about the rich young ruler. He told him the truth. Here's what you need to do.

And he led him. He walked away sad. And he also, he confidently shared the good news. Now, he said, I am the way. And the more I studied, I think, Jesus' life and ministry, the more I began to see that what emerged kind of for us were these kind of these five missional practices that he would use over and over again to love people, to bless people. And what we simply did then is we kind of took those and went, like, how do we put this in a package, put this in a way that actually is memorable, that sticks with people? And that's when we came up with this BLESS acronym. That it has made a big, big difference at Community Christian Church as far as mobilizing people for mission. It's become the National Evangelism Strategy for the Covenant Denomination.

And there's a whole, there's about 400 churches in Austin now that are doing something called BLESS Austin, where in the next five years, they want to actually bless by name all 2.7 million people across Austin. And it's kind of, it's gotten some traction. Now, John already shared this, so I'll just hit him real quick. If you have questions about it, we can talk about it. But simply, they're this. The B stands for begin with prayer. And again, with Jesus as our example, I mean, when he started his earthly ministry in Luke chapter 6, it says he went out on the mountain and he prayed. And this is my journal. And one of the things I try to do on a regular basis, I just write the word BLESS on here.

And then I write the names of like, you know, five to eight of my friends or neighbors. And you know what? These are people I'm, these are people that I'm praying for. I'm saying, okay, you know, God, give me a chance to really share your love with them. The L stands for listen. And again, I personally think one of the real issues with more Christians as a whole is that we're much more known for our talking than we are our listening. And I love the example of Jesus, like in Luke chapter 18, with the blind man. He doesn't assume that the blind man wants to see. The first thing he does, he says, what do you want me to do? He asks him a question. He gives him dignity and waits and listens, listens for his response.

And then he, then he, then he heals them. The E stands for eat. One of the things I love about the BLESS practice is different than maybe some other missional strategy or even outreach or evangelistic kind of strategies is this is not something that you have to do in addition to your life. This is how you live your life. And so like even the eating part, you have 21 opportunities, you know, if you eat three times a day, throw in a, you know, coffee or dessert, you may have 30, you have 30 kind of opportunities to include other people in your life. And I can go on and on about that one. And I love it. The S, again, Jesus said, I came not to be served, but to serve. And here's the deal. Once you're praying for somebody and you're listening to them and you get to the place where you're sharing meals with them.

I tell people, this is like a remedial course in friendship. And that's what Jesus did. He was called a friend of sinners. And for any of you that are married, okay, or you've dated anybody, seriously, I mean, you do the same thing. You know, some of you may be praying, but you listen, you eat, and then you serve. You love them the way they want to be loved. That's how you develop relationships. You serve them. And then lastly is story. And the story part is, I think, just understanding that, yes, proclamation is important, but it doesn't necessarily have to be first. And then, in fact, after you've paid the relational rent, when you tell your story then, then it's much, the collateral of the story has a lot more gravity to it.

Because now they trust you, they know you, and maybe they even kind of love you. So, this has been a big, big help to me personally. It's been a big help to the people in our church and a number of people really around the world who we've got a chance to share this with. So, I'll just put that out there. That's kind of a little bit of my story, how we kind of got there, and then kind of the implementation of it. Yeah, beautiful. So, you've got the bless. So, begin with prayer. Before doing anything, bake it in prayer, so that it's grounded in God. You're listening to people, you know, and especially in digital space, it's much better to listen and ask questions than it is to make statements. And so, listening gives permission for people to trust you.

They trust you when you listen to them because they see that you're valuing them over yourself. You're eating together. That's interesting. We can nuance that here in a little bit. You can serve. You're serving. You're positioning yourself in a place of serving. There's some humility with that. You're sharing your story. You're sharing Jesus' story. And it's interesting that, really, the story component is at the end of this thing. Like, it's not at the beginning, oh, let me tell you what's going on in my life. It's much more about positioning after the fact. Well, hey, look, guys, I want to open this up. Guys and guests, I want to open this up for conversation. What do we like about this? Maybe what are some challenges that we're seeing in digital space?

I sincerely, I want to use this as an opportunity. You are the focus group here. And we have Dave freaking Ferguson on the call. So, you tell me what works digitally, what doesn't work digitally. Let's nuance it here. Who's going first? My question is this. So, it's great. It's deep, personal, relational ministry. I mean, it's the type of ministry that I deeply love and what we built youth group and stuff on. And I love it. And I love the strategy. It's, like, easy to understand. But how do you see this transferring to streaming culture in a world, like, for my world, right, there are hundreds of thousands, millions and millions of people who come for intentional one-way communication where they're literally looking for a talking head.

I mean, they come to spectate the guy on the street corner who is shouting at them to come to Jesus. And so, how does this translate to a world where the biggest influencers are the people who are not building relationships with their viewer base and their fan base, the people who are consuming their content? Could you flip the coin and say that the influencer is trying to motivate people to do the blessed practices? So, the influencer is not activating the blessed practices necessarily. But that's what they're encouraging people to do. Does that, do you think that would work? I'm curious. Streaming culture being what it is. Would that work? Mark doesn't think so. He's just trying to do that.

I didn't know if I was being asked that question or if Dave was being asked that question. I wasn't real sure if I was supposed to unmute. So, I'd still... You tell me, Mark. Okay. I don't, I don't. I mean, yeah, sure. I mean, a lot of what we're doing is we're using streaming in digital space to bridge a gap and build relationship. But a lot of what we're doing is saying, hey, we're meeting you online, but we're constantly trying to navigate you towards more relational spaces. But that isn't necessarily the culture and the bent of our stuff. So, yeah, I was just curious to hear what Dave thought about, like, how... Yeah, let me take a stab at this, Mark. And maybe I'm, maybe this is an air ball, but what the heck.

The, the, the biggest, I mean, is the, is, is, should the aspiration, I mean, there's going to be people who are, who are influencers, right? In the digital space, significant influencers. Millions and millions of people engaging with them. In the physical space, that's kind of the equivalent of an Andy Stanley or a Craig Rochelle. Right? And I guess, and here's maybe my question. Do we want to create models where we're, our aspirations are just to be Craig Rochelle or Andy Stanley? Or do we want to create models that we're trying to mobilize everyday people to be able to engage digitally? You know what I'm saying? So, I would say this is probably not a great strategy for Craig Rochelle because he's like one of the best communicators on the planet.

And he ought to keep doing his thing, what he's doing. It's probably not a great strategy for Andy Stanley. But my hunch is it's probably a great strategy for the 10,000 or 75,000 people in his church. So, I think to your question, I would probably compare those folks to high profile, brilliant communicators who just have it. There's a different gifting. But if we're trying to mobilize lots of people for mission, I'm going to suggest maybe this works. Now, I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, this is what we're trying to figure out. So, no, but I love that. And, you know, the streaming culture is an interesting one. And I streamed for three hours today to 20 some people and half of them spoke to me, which means there was 105 people through my stream.

The vast majority of them never said a word to me. But I had the chance to influence them in some capacity because of the time that I spent with them. And the question then becomes for us, like, how do we move those people into more intentional relational spaces where we can do exactly what you're talking about, which is what I want to do. So, but I love it. Like, how do we train people to do exactly that massively, you know? Would this not be a better tool, not necessarily for Twitch, but for Discord? I mean, like, train your hosts in Discord and Facebook groups to operate in a blessed mindset. You know, that first engagement to position, begin with prayer. Listen to that. And you're training your first responders.

I don't know what your term that you use, Mark, but that first level engager that's reaching out to the new people, you're running them through the blessed practices. It would be interesting. You're right, Twitch, because so many people don't talk, might be a challenge. Jeff, you said that because most of the folks on there are playing games and they're interacting in a different way. So, it's kind of like they're already just hanging out. And so, this is a way to actually equip them for how to engage in conversations that can lead to spiritual things? Well, the way that Mark and streamers would use Discord is that's where really the discipleship, that's really where the relationships are happening.

Mark's right. Like, the majority of people are consuming a product on Twitch, but the goal of Twitch is to drive to Discord, at least for the average streamer. And so, or the average church that's doing streaming. And so, I mean, really, I would see that being more of a focus on the Discord piece. And I don't want to get stuck on the, there's so many other applications to get into beyond just the streaming component. But I do think it's interesting to wrestle with how it could fit into a Discord, how it could fit into some of these asynchronous communities. But even more than that, really, I think BLESS gets to this place of multiplying it outside of our asynchronous communities, where now we're leveraging the people that are connecting with us, and we're helping them do it in their physical space, in their digital space.

And that's where we're starting to see a lot more intentional multiplication. The idea of the, I forget the story, I typed it in chat, but it was like, it's not the consumer, or it's not the converter. It's the blesser, because you're allowing that trust to get built by beginning with prayer, by listening, by eating type of thing. So, love it. Somebody else, what do y'all think? I really think, like, I'm thinking about the angle scale. I talked to one of our people on DCN today, understanding that Twitch is basically like the 21st century version of the radio. So, they're more than just a communication tool of a sermon. It's actually more like Dave Ramsey on the radio every day, because you got, it's very interactive, very fast-paced, long periods of time.

Pulling them to Discord can be the place where, like, Discord can be the front door for actually getting to know people, and then pulling them into relationships. So, you're going to have to think through a funnel on that, and think through different spaces in the angle scale to say, okay, our community here in Discord for this part is going to be here. So, I think channels would be a part. I'm just, as I'm listening to the conversation, those are the things I'm thinking about. And I just want to be, I'm not trying to derail what we're talking about at all. The reason I'm asking is because we're gathering together, like, the top 15 or 20 biggest influencers in Twitch that are Christians and are living as digital missionaries in Cincinnati in a couple of months.

And we're literally going to be walking in with them, and one of the sessions is about multiplication and how to actually disciple and deal with crisis inside of the community of people that God's enabling you to minister to. Because a lot of these people are really great entertainers, but they don't have any pastoral experience. So, I'm like, yeah, I want to take this, but how do I, I really want to use this, but I want to know the best ways to take this and train them on this system so they can really begin building relationships, living as missionaries and discipling. The already big raging fan base that they have that are watching them play video games and preach every day. So, that's why I'm asking, because I think it's incredibly useful.

I just see the top-down and the bottom-up approach. So, you're going to have, like you said, the Andy Stanleys, the Craig Groeschels, they're going to do their thing. But those guys need to be all in on the grassroots doing the individual day-to-day things rather than trying to be them. So, the top-down, bottom-up approach, as you're thinking through that place, those people of influence have the ability to really push the ball forward in the movement of practicing this. And, to be honest, you should do, for one, what you wish you could do for everyone, as I quote Kerry Newhoff. So, even as we get more influence, we should take some time to do that with our people as well, as much as we possibly can.

I'll throw out, I mean, Jeff hinted at this a little bit, too, and maybe the challenge for those people in influence really are to create blessed cultures. And I think Chesley's exactly right, that if you want to create a culture, I think, I mean, to me, there's three components. We can go into this way. There's one, there's value, narrative, and behavior, and you're going to reproduce who you are. So, I encourage people, even people who are leading large networks and large movements, that you have to embody the smallest level of reproduction yourself, if you want to see that throughout your whole movement. So, for example, like, I get to lead our New Thing Network, our New Thing Movement. We've helped plant, you know, about 5,000 churches.

So, I know that I need to have, be in a small group, and I'm in a small group on Tuesday night, and I need to have an apprentice leader in that group and be doing the stuff myself. Now, I'll do that, and then I'll also work with network leaders, helping them reproduce. I won't do all the stuff in between, but I'll do it at the largest level, and I'll do it at the smallest level, which I think is exactly what Chesley's saying. And so, like, for me, like, one of the reasons I showed you, like, you know, here's on my journal, and here's the people that I pray for, because I think, you know, for me to actually do this, and I feel like, I mean, for me to actually kind of create that kind of culture, I actually have to embody it myself.

I don't know if that contributes to what you were talking about, Chesley, or if that's what you're talking about, top-down or top and bottom. Yeah, it's that you said it clearer than I did, why you said that movement leaders are supposed to create blessed cultures. But then I think what you added that, yeah, you want to do for one what you do. What was it? What was the Cary Newhoff quote? Do for one what you wish you could do for everyone? Any other thoughts? How do we eat digitally? That's a good one. Dave's doing it right now. Extra toasty. Yeah, and our church, we do. We tell people to bring whatever, depending on when their church starts, their church group starts. So it is a given we, and we talk about it, like we'll even just, you know, we have different culture representatives, so people bring different things.

And it could be just as basic as, oh, I put lemon in my water all the way to lemon, you know, pasta or something like that. So it varies, and there's, granted, there gets to be competitiveness, you know, in there sometimes, but that is how we do, we, yeah, that's how we eat together. Now, when it comes to an omissional space, there's a little more structure, but I mean, there's a lot of, what do you call it, invitation to whatever you want. Even if you don't bring anything to eat, you come anyway, like if you're not prepared anything, it's just, but that's, yeah, and it's bad, and we're, and it's loud, crunching, eating, drink, it's, we keep it all, we don't mute ourselves during that time together.

Yeah, I know, and I have, like, weird hearing issues, so there's some things, the crunching is, can be very distracting sometimes. I mean, when I'm facilitating, so, but that's, that's weird for me, yeah, like when people are smacking, yeah. Hey, Dave, why, why eating, why, why, why was eating, I mean, other than the E fit into the blessed model, what is it about eating that made sense for you to add it? I mean, I think that, I mean, like, think about Jesus with Zacchaeus, I mean, that, that was a life-changing meal, so, I mean, he, he was our, he was, he was our model, I mean, our Matthew's party, I mean, that, that's where life, and, and I think all of us, I mean, I remember, I remember the first date, and it really was pizza with my wife.

I mean, that's, that's when our relationship changed, and, you know, we, we went out with friends last night, we had great Mediterranean food at a place called Vasili's, and there's, you know, I mean, all, there's just something that qualitatively changes when you share food with other people. One of the things that we, one of the things that we, one of the things that we have done at Community, it's not quite as dramatic as with some of the stuff you're talking about, but one of the things that we've seen as an outreach that's been super helpful is Alpha. About 40% of the people that go through Alpha at Community come out on the other side, and they will, they will say that they named Jesus as their Lord for the very first time, which is amazing.

But one of the key things that Alpha has been brilliant about over the years is they always have a meal, because it, it's not the Nicky Gumbel videos that are so riveting, but it's actually the community they create, and actually the safe place to ask any questions you want. And so then they go into the pandemic, and we continue to do it, we took the whole thing online, we continue to see the same kind of thing conversion, but a lot of the, a lot of them would, they would exactly, exactly like Stacy was saying. And people would, okay, so it was kind of like, you know, bring your own, and they would, they would share a meal, and it was just like this over Zoom. I think in our culture, eating is something we just do, but in, I think in the culture that Christ lived in, as well as what's going on in the Middle East right now, it's an event, and we don't make it an event.

And in an event, you get to know people. I think about some of the interviews I've had over the years, some of the applications I've filled out, so forth. One of the things that people ask a reference is, have you eaten together? And that says, that tells a lot about the person. Have you eaten together? Have you shared a meal? We do it digitally, we do it face-to-face, but it makes a difference in how we, how we are of each other. So, Chesley shared an idea about Uber Eats, you know, and even in my own life, I've had people, not Uber Eats, but, you know, deliver stuff to me. You have several other op, DoorDash. You know, I've gotten DoorDash delivered a couple times by people that weren't even in the same city as me when I had COVID.

I had a friend of mine who I never met, sent me candy and drinks, you know, to my house via DoorDash, which I thought was an awesome, and also it's an awesome way to serve. What are some other, maybe, and Stacey was actually talking about chomping down, literally we're watching Dave eat some Cheez-Its. Is there any other creativity centered around the idea of eating together? I mean, are we breaking out our virtual reality stuff, or are we, I know we can probably go down the metaverse side, I'm sure augmented reality, lots of stuff soon. But anybody else got any creative ideas centered around eating? That's interesting, Chris, for is there something online that can replace eating to generate the same effect?

It would be interesting. I mean, there was, I mean, I don't know if it replaces eating, but there was a company in Pittsburgh called Blue Monkey Tea, and they do all these really funky kind of tea tasting stuff. And they will, and so there was this other couple, we're kind of starting to become friends, it was actually again during the pandemic. So they would email, they would mail you the tasting, and you would pair them with chocolates. And we actually did it with some friends. I mean, the people, the company who hosted the whole thing, it was online, they were based out of Pittsburgh, but the other couple was on the other side of Chicago. And, you know, tea tasting and chocolate was, and I felt like at the end of it, I got to know them better.

And we actually, yeah, became better friends as a result of that. I could see, Mark is commenting in here too, gaming, you know, is another one of those heavily relational type of things. And you could definitely see that, Mark, so very, very true there. Well, as we're looking at the other, begin with prayer, listening, eating, serving, story, sharing, Jesus. Like, are there any other obstacles? You know, I know eating was the big one that stood out for me. Do you guys see any other obstacles or challenges at things like operating it digitally? I'll piggyback off of, you know, I think us talking about eating, it doesn't seem like an obstacle at this point. Because I'm just thinking of the things that you could do from a community standpoint of getting to know people, pairing like some of the gaming while doing like some, if you can put some planning together, where you are sharing the same type of meal from like the same restaurant.

Like if you do some coordination logistically, where people are eating the same thing at the same time while playing a game together digitally. I think that could be a huge win from a group perspective. And it's a lot of fun. I mean, we did that in COVID. We did happy hour, let's be honest. We were tasting alcohol at the same time. So, it was good stuff. So, yeah, but we had a lot of fun. So, I could see some really cool things come out of that. You know, with our friends, we had like four couples that we didn't even know that were on there with us that we got to know because of that. Still haven't met them in person, you know. So, that, which is pretty cool. So, doing things like that, I think, would be beneficial.

We, with the sharing piece, though, or the serving piece, we had somebody that had surgery. And all the guys on the community, Dan Tebow, I don't think he's on a phone call, but his community got together, put money together, and bought like a full, like full week's worth of meals and like other things, all digitally. Like, these guys are all across the country. So, it was pretty cool. Like, I think you have the ability to do that in this community as well. So, I don't really see any obstacles. I think you're just going to have to think more creatively. Digital Church Network does not condemn nor condone the idea of alcohol being used in context of church services. So, I just want to stamp that right there.

So, Chesley Lumby, keep that out of the conversation, please, moving forward. That'll be nice. Sorry to cut you off, Stacey. Go ahead. No. You're welcome. That was totally worth it. Yeah. So, we did that. We pretty much, in our community groups, we pretty much know each other's Venmo, PayPal, Cash App stuff. So, when there is something that happens, we just send money. Like, if we, like, our own benevolence fund. But some people don't have that, right? And so, what some people, or some people prefer sending me money and I just send it directly to the person. But that, you know, that's established trust and safety and things like that. And then the lead pastor, you know, I will keep them updated on what we're doing.

And then sometimes the church will step in because the church has a benevolence fund. But it starts with the group and then send things. And sometimes it is Uber Eats and meals and things like that. So, it's been more for deaths in the families. Yeah. Dr. Harris shared something earlier in chat about shared experiences. You know, maybe the idea, gaming is a shared experience. Eating is a shared experience. What are some other shared experiences, maybe beyond, in digital metaverse space that may be considered something like eating in digital metaverse? Any other shared experiences pop up to anybody? Let me specify for a second, Ken. I'm on mute for the most part because I got three kids here, seven and under.

And so, it's an unpredictable environment at the moment. My wife is leading her small group tonight in the other room. So, but I think in my Facebook group, we do communion once a month. And so, obviously, we're doing it together. I'll play a YouTube video, worship video, about the blood of Jesus of communion. And so, that helps in like, so that's part of a quote-unquote shared experience, which adds to the, what I'm talking about here. Because if we have food, we're all eating at the same time, right? Having coffee at the same time, whatever. It's at the same time, and maybe even for the same purpose, but it's not, but it doesn't have the same shared experience as if, as if you just put your nachos in my cheese dip.

Like, that's a shared kind of, like, there's a, so there's a different level of transparency, openness, that, you know, food, sharing a meal opens up relationships. It opens up vulnerability, transparency, things like that. So, I think these elements that make sharing a meal powerful and transformational, it takes one relationship from one level to the next, like Dave was sitting there with his wife. I mean, and I don't think anybody who was married on here didn't at some point have dinner, right? So, there's something huge about sharing the meal. And I think online, you can, you can partake of meals at the same time, but I don't think it has the same powerful effect as, like, what Mark was saying, when people are gaming together, right?

So, obviously, gaming is different from eating, but I, so when he said that, it just made me think about sharing an experience together. So, in addition to eating food, like, what is it? And I think there has some kind of affinity, right? Like Mark was saying, like, they're all gaming, right? There's, so I think affinity is a part of that, some kind of a, so as you think about, you know, brainstorming, what kind of shared experiences you can actually have online, I think there's some things like that that we got to look at. Yeah. What can we be doing at the same time, like, that opens us up, whether it's, one reason why I say that is because you, if you're on watching TV online, you can now do these watch parties, right?

Think about that. Or they, they, you can pick a movie, and they'll let you do a watch party online. Same way with, with Facebook, with worship services and stuff. Like, the watch party thing was a thing, because people are trying to open up these shared experiences that you can, you're experiencing something for the first time, right, together. And then you can, you can talk about it. So, I think adding to the food element online, there's got to be another thing that can actually help that go a little, go a little deeper and have that same principle there. I am so impressed you held it together that entire time with daddy, daddy, daddy, like that, that was, that was very cool. Yeah, Dave, I'm kind of vibing that eating experience a little bit.

I think eating is a huge component and it's something to work on, but the intentionality of the experience, I think. Did you want to, Dave, do you want to vibe a little bit what you're thinking about that? No, I was just picking up on what they were, I think it was what Chesley said, too. I mean, yeah, because, I mean, I mean, we just heard a number of different things, whether, you know, it was gaming or others, that it was kind of like a shared experience. And those, that is something you're on, okay, it's not the exact same as eating, it could be eating, but what is the experience we can have together that takes a lot? Because I do think the, one of the things I've observed, I think the blessed practices, I think the right word is kind of epigenetic.

They kind of build on each other, you begin with prayer, you listen, you have an experience together, and now that experience together, you really get to know each other, then you're able to serve, because you understand what needs they have, and then you get a chance to share your story. So, I mean, I, I, I, I, I'm buying it. That's why John's the doctor. He's got that, that doctrine in transformational discipleship, so that he can, he can just whip that out. Y'all are crazy. No, I actually got, I was, I was, I was thinking about it and didn't have an answer until Mark said what he said about them gaming together, and I was like, that's it. That's, that's it. They're, they're, they're sharing that, and they are, and it just opens up.

It opens up conversations that open up, so in different contexts, because I think David mentioned how the culture is different back then as far as what eating represents. So, even today, with a lot of Americans with different cultures, eating can have the same effect. I mean, just like, I mean, it just does, right? Yeah. But there are, there are also some other things that can also have the same effect, and that's what I just want to throw out there, because he was just a really good example of that. Then the contextualization of what experience is, demographic, age, platform, nationality, continent, like, it's, it's, it's up for grab. You create the experience that makes sense for the, you've, you began with prayer, and you listen to them, and through the listening process, hopefully it's being revealed what that experience needs to be.

Like, I didn't even know it was a problem. I was actually the guy two weeks ago that was like, ah, we can make it work. It's fine. Don't worry about it. But no, I think experience really plays well here. Any other questions? We've got just a couple more minutes, and we're going to, we're going to land a plane. Go ahead, Stacey. One thing that I, that is just kind of thinking in my head is that we had someone in our crew that had eating disorder, and so we were sensitive, though, to that, and we had to be creative of what that was going to be like. And, but we would only know that because we had built trust, and that person shared that with us, but we, but that was just kind of one thing, and even same goes with, you know, alcohol or whatever, fill in the blank, whatever it is, but that was something that just kind of popped up in my head and within our small groups.

It's like that. It's being aware when we make those kind of decisions, and it's as a group, obviously, but yeah, there's some sensitivities to be aware. Very, very true. Well said. Jess, can I add one, can I have one thing, and then you can land the plane. Is that okay? Yeah, sure. You just said that you asked, like, what problems do we see, and from our context, one of the biggest obstacles that we've run into is many people in the digital space are there because they don't want to enter relational spaces. Either they're dealing with problems, I have tons of people on the autism spectrum, people with significant disabilities, they're terrified to enter relational spaces. That's the reason they're engaging with us is because they don't want to engage with people, whether that's anxiety or whatever.

The biggest obstacle we've had is not like, let's work this, this system is incredible, you know, it's easy to communicate, and it's really helpful. Our biggest obstacle is getting people to get, enter it. Like, how do I get people to get to the point where I can listen to them? Because I have a ton of people who are listening, but won't come into a digital space where I can hear them. And so that has been one of the things that we've been working really hard to overcome in our context is, like, how do we create really intentional digital spaces where all that we're there to do is hear your story? That's it. No, no, no strings attached, like, because come and tell us your story. That's all we want.

And some of that stuff has been working. Some of it hasn't. But that's been really hard for us. We just have a lot of people who that's the reason they're there, you know, because they don't want to be in some of those relational spaces. And, Mark, like, what things have worked? Personal invites. It's mostly been personal invites. Like, it has to be me going to somebody and personally in a direct message saying, hey, after church this Wednesday night, I'd really love to get to know you. Would you stop by and hang out with me in the Meet Pastor Mark channel? And if I invite people personally, they have a high chance of coming. But if we just announce it, almost no one will ever show up. But if they feel valued because we made the personal connection and made the personal invite, then sometimes they will pop by.

For some people, it just takes a long time to build, to become comfortable and feel safe to share a story, too. I mean, that's a little bit of a listen, isn't it? Hey, come over here so I can listen to you. You're inviting them, you know, coming quite literally into the conversation. And so it's interesting how that would even pair out what you're describing. It's good. Who is it? Nicole, you had a question? No, actually, I was just going to speak into what Mark was saying, because since I'm in this kind of unique frame, I'm doing this with kids and youth. We see a lot of that on autism spectrum, Down syndrome, just point blank, the ability not to talk. So we've come up with these creative ways and just think about it, you know, not promoing anybody else.

But there are actually stations that all the button does is let you talk. So then you just listen back to everything that they're saying and you can respond. Maybe the space that they're already in is that sacred space. That's the space where they come to you. So sometimes we've made this box around our limitless possibility of church without walls. Like, this is a place where I preach, but that's the place where they come to listen. They're doing it in reverse. They've already been blessed. Now they're listening and we're trying to get them to the space to be blessed. They're already there. We just have to manipulate the space, what we call it, so that they can say, oh, this is my space. Well, I'm already here.

I'm comfortable here. I come here all the time. It's easy for me to communicate here. If I go to this button and I press this button, I can just talk or record something and it'll just go to you. And then maybe you'll send something back. But I'm comfortable there. If we start out where they're comfortable meeting them where they're at already because they're already coming to you, that's the space. You already have their attention. Hey, it's 9 o'clock at least central, top of the hour, wherever you are. And so we're going to land a plane. And this has been an incredible night. Dave, thank you for taking time after hours. A lot of our people are bivocational and having the nine to five jobs. And so that's why we do these roundtables late at night and so that we're all able to see this.

And so thank you for taking the time to do this. Can I say something real quick, Jeff, before you wrap up too? I want to say thank you to you all. I mean, it was nice of Jeff to invite me on. I know a little about the blessed practice. I don't know a ton about what you guys are doing. I am trying to learn and trying to stay really on the edge of what you're doing. I am convinced, though. I'm convinced what you're doing really is, I think, an important part of the future of the church. And whatever encouragement I can be and ways that I can help, I would love to be an ally for you. So I'm super excited about what Jeff is doing and putting, you know, digital churches into networks so we can start more of these.

And I would love to help champion it however I can. So anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I'm a fan of each of yours and thank you for what you're doing. Oh, and we've got plans for Dave Ferguson, trust me. All right, bring them on. We're going to be good. But hey, listen, this has been great. Thank you, y'all, for joining this evening. We'll put it on YouTube and get it out there, post it in DCN. So if you want to, some of you came in late, want to catch up or share with others, you know, go to the normal channels on that to do it. But thank you very much for being part of this roundtable. Dave, once again, thank you for being here. But we're going to land a plane. So for Dave, for Jeff, for everybody else, thanks for jumping into this conversation.

And I'm sure we'll have more coming up soon here as we keep diving into digital missionaries, blessed practices, how all this comes together. So thanks, y'all. And buy Dave's book. I see the book. I feel like, hey, Nicole, can you post that link in FAM so people want to buy? Sure, I'll grab it. Yeah, grab it from Amazon. And post it in FAM, not in chat, because I'm hanging up. But thanks, everybody. Appreciate it. And I'm sure we'll see you around FAM.