EP253 - Online Pastor Coach TAKEOVER

All right. Hey, welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff here, and we're doing some bonus content. This is some new content that's outside of the normal podcast of what we're doing. As you know, we're in season four, Jesus Gamer's Church here with the Church Digital Podcast. But I was like, hey, you know what? It's not enough to just launch a new season. Let's also do a podcast takeover at the same time too. As many of you know, back in 2022, a year ago, we launched a podcast network where we started through the Church Digital, started platforming some other voices and helping some other shows get off the ground and get out there. And we've been really excited to see those podcasts, those shows, those YouTubes continue to grow and develop.

And so we wanted to do the podcast takeover again in 23. Now, of course, I don't want to give up my show. Like that was what we did last year. It was like, hey, I'll just I'll take a month off and there's way too much stuff to do and to talk about. So I don't want to I don't actually stop. We're going to keep doing the podcast on Monday. But on Thursdays, we're going to launch these bonus episodes, these podcast takeover shows. So look for them. You know, my gut is we're going to be doing this for a couple months. Like there's there's some new shows that we're adding to the podcast. There's some shows that to the network where there's some new content, some new content creators that actually have not even been in the space that haven't created anything, but we're getting ready to onboard.

So like for the next couple months, look for some bonus content from the church digital podcast every Thursday. And we'll be rolling this stuff out. And I'm I'm super excited. We've got some new people coming in some new to the church digital to the podcast network. We've got a new show coming on. But the show's been around for a while. And I'm really excited to have these people, Joey Santos and JMO, Jason Morris, to be the first new show that we're highlighting here through the podcast takeover. Now, Jason Morris, you know, and I've publicly have said this may be the smartest man in all of digital church. And Joey Santos, who is just this really big teddy bear that you want to hug. Okay, maybe that's just me.

But these guys are awesome. These guys have been doing digital ministry for a long time. And in the case of Jason Morris, we're talking a decade plus. And so their insight on digital ministry, on pastoring, and on working within the established church, man, these guys have been doing it. They know the ups and the downs. They know the joys. They know the hardships. They know the struggles. And so it is an incredible opportunity for churches like yours, for pastors and volunteers like you to learn from someone from a practical standpoint, from someone who has been there like Jason and Joey has. And so they launched the podcast, maybe about a year ago, called the Online Pastor Coach Podcast. And it's been awesome.

I've loved it. I was on it maybe a couple months ago. And this episode that they're sharing with you right now with Mindy Caliguire is incredible. Like if we get to the soul care, care for the soul, care for the individual, care for self in this, how do you manage this incredibly hard job of being a pastor and being digital? Like, oh my gosh, this episode is incredible. I'm so glad they selected this one. So here's what I want you to do. A, I want you to listen to this podcast. And B, I want you to subscribe to the podcast. You can go to thechurch.digital slash podcast. That's the podcast network page. Find Online Pastor Coach Podcast. Subscribe to that podcast. So maybe you do that first. Maybe I was out of order.

Number one, subscribe to this podcast. Links in the show notes too. Number two, let's go ahead and get you listening here to Mindy Caliguire, my good friend from Soul Care, and also my friends, Joey and J-Mo on the Online Pastor Coach Podcast. All right, everybody. Here you go. It's been, it's been great going through some of your material that you've been doing for the SOS stuff. Oh, that's right. I totally forgot about that. This was the group that has helped with that. Yeah. Yeah. And yesterday, yeah, I had my first appointment with Casey. Oh, he's not a rock star. Isn't he fabulous? Oh, yeah. I picked up on that about five minutes in. Like, we're just like talking and his insights were just just so good.

Just like one random question and 15 minutes later, I come up for air and realize, what did you just do? I know. He's a ninja. He's a total ninja on the soul. Total ninja. Stop that. Stop doing that. Right. Exactly. So he, good for you for picking him. I mean, all of them are great. He leads the whole spiritual direction practice for Soul Care. So he partners with me on the development of the whole thing, but he's an amazing spiritual director. And he was the first person I reached to when I was trying to figure out how to do this at scale. And, you know, you know me, the, the candle lighters and the jet fuel drinkers. It's like, right. You got to have candle lighters that know how to drink a little jet fuel.

And so Casey's one of them. And he's dominantly lighting. Thanks for the heads up, because I got a meeting with him Tuesday. So now I'm going to come, like, prepared for that. You should. Because my meeting is with him. No, my meeting is with him Tuesday. I really look forward to it because when I look at his resume and what it is, I say, well, I think he's going to be a good person to talk to. And I'll tell you this, personally speaking, being completely vulnerable, I always have resistance to anything like that. Always. So this is my very, very first time doing anything. You're reading my mail. Cause I'm in the same boat. In the same boat. And this is what I told, this is what I told Casey.

I was like, I knew I was in trouble when, you know, it's going through the stuff that Mindy, you know, I signed up for it so that I could help others. Right. So there's, there's a, and then we're going through this stuff. My strategy is working. Right. So, so then we're going through this stuff. And, um, I think I put a comment in, you know, in the content you've had me, uh, you know, above all else called guard your heart, you know, proud of this come the issues of life. And I was, um, that was like the first chink in the armor there where it was just like, okay. Um, talking about prioritization of soul care. And when I knew I was in trouble when I was trying to, you know, make an appointment with Casey, you know, between his schedule and mine.

And the first one that I had available was for next year. Um, and I thought to myself that connecting those two things together. Wow. Jason. Um, and it was like, okay, maybe there's a problem in my priorities. If I can't make time for soul care until next year. Right. So that, that for me was just like, okay, clearly something needs to, you know, the priority needs to be in a different place. Wow. Um, and so, so I was like, screw it. I'm going to just move something else out and I'm going to do this because clearly I have a problem. Right. One, two, um, the other little indicator, the little red flag for me was, you know, going through your material and the platform, um, wouldn't allow me to double speed it.

Um, and then, um, I figured out a way to hack it and double speed it anyway. And then, um, You got into Vimeo. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I can, I've got all kinds of plugins and stuff like that. Cause that's just how I roll. And then I realized, you know, if on the soul care course, you know, on slowing down and, you know, being present and all that kind of stuff, I'm finding myself frustrated because I can't double speed it. Maybe that is its own little signal to you. So interesting. Like, do I really need to double the seven minute video? Right. Especially don't get me wrong. Especially your videos, because it's not just talking head, although you do talking head stuff here. It's, it kind of reminded me of a lot of the stuff I've seen with John Ortberg back in the days when you were doing like Monty stuff, you know, it's artfully done.

You're having a talk, you know, while you're walking around the trails in Colorado and stuff like that. I was just like, Oh, that's so great. So good. You know, I know. So appreciate it. I love hearing this. This is great because I'm going to share it with the team. I, I, um, like, and like I said, I always very resistant to anything like that. Like anything, anytime that, that people say, no, you just find somebody to counsel with. Just come on. I know what the Bible says. I know the truth. I know, you know, again, I can apply common sense. I don't need anybody to tell me how to apply common sense, but, uh, there's something that when you start talking about that side of a prioritize our souls and you, you backed up with the scriptures and I realized I never looked at that.

Like I'm here. I am late forties. Pastor son grew up in the church. And the thing I realized I never pay attention to in the importance of our soul. And, and I was like, you know, this might be the time I actually need that. And I need to just give in. That's okay to ask for somebody else's help, which again, if anybody that knows me and is listening to this, you're going to probably fall off their chair right now, because that's not how I talk. That's just not how it's tough. But again, that's the effect of your course right there. And I just started. Um, and, and, and I, I honestly, like, I'm like, my wife saw this book, right? I printed the whole guy and, um, and my wife's like, what are you doing?

And because again, it's just like, what are you doing? Like, are you, I was like, no, I'm going through this program and, and this for me is not for, it's just like, really? And like, that's telling you how, like, she was surprised. And that tells you how, what kind of wall you guys broke here. Yeah. You might actually give me to journal. Because most of the time when I, you know, like I don't do handwritten journal. I just don't because I do, I go do voice memos. Keep going. I'll show you something, Jason. I'm going to send you this. Um, I'll, I'll type stuff, you know, I'll make videos like even like tiny moleskins for you. Oh, I give away moleskins. Look how tiny this is. Anybody can do this.

It was a mistake in our order. And then we got it. We're like, Oh no, this is exactly what we need to get to. But okay, let's just, let's just be real. I totally interrupted you, but I had to show you one of those. You're going to send me your new address. I'll send you. Let's just be real. Because again, this conversation here, that's what I told you, right? This podcast is like this. We're just having a conversation. Um, and I'm thinking about it. I may say something that might, you know, I don't want to be controversial or anything like that, but I think that's part of, I think why you crack the code here with so care is male pastors being able to get out of their own way to realize that they actually need something like this.

Because we, as a man, we have the tendency and I'm talking, I'm speaking of myself. I'm not talking about anybody else. I'm talking about myself here. We have the tendency. I have the tendency. Okay. This, all this stuff is for people that need help. I don't need help. And, and I, and I told you, I, we sign up for the, he guesses, uh, right. And, and, and, in, in four days, I'm talking to four different people. Like that's how fast it happens. And, and I'm like, and I'm just like, okay, I'm hearing all these people's problems and I'm pretending I don't have them. Um, to me, and because they're talking, they're talking about mental health. They're talking about anxiety. They're talking about depression and, and, and I'm in that season that I'm realizing that maybe I'm not that different than the people that asked me for help.

And they're coming to me for it. So if I don't do something about it and I, and I, and I, and I look at, you know, in a, in a, in a person experiencing church, it's those things in that, like people drop in sometimes asking for help. But one, I, one thing I learned, and I think Jason can testify to that. I love to hear from him because of, you don't know who they are. You don't know their faces online in the digital platform. They will open up. They will talk to you everything that you don't want to know because they're, they're waiting for the outlet and now you're it. If you're a digital pastor, you're, you're the outlet. And if you don't have your soul where God designed it to be, it's going to be hard to handle.

So I, I, I, that's why I, I want to get into that with you, Mindy, and Jason to this conversation, because again, this experience that we're having, Jason and I are having this experience now through soul care. And it's already like, you know, it looks like they broke both of us apart. Now we're putting the pieces together to see what we can, you know, Jason and I are going to be in Tampa next week. We're both about, we're going to be like in group therapy next week. So we can, we can figure it out. Having these conversations, but, but I, one thing I want to ask you, Mindy, is what drove you, like what inspired you? What actually, what happened in you that you said, this is it. This, this is what God called me to do, because there's no question.

We watch the videos. We watch the videos of you talking and it's coming from the heart. Um, and, and that's the thing I love about it. When I watch, it's not this, like it's, it's, it's well-produced, but when you talk, it's from your heart. It's whatever God put in your heart. It's not just the, some, you know, text that it's, it's, it's, it's, it's somewhere for a future. So tell me a little bit about that side. I'd love to hear from you what that came from for you. I'm happy to share that story. Um, and I think that's why I have such a bias towards the whole digital church network towards the hair on fire church planters, toward people who are moving into frontiers that are important for us to move into, but are hard and are new and are unsupported and people don't understand it's lonely, all that stuff.

Cause all the, all the, all that I have to offer right now in this season of life, it comes out of the wreckage of what happened to me when I trashed the wellbeing of my own soul. It is not, I mean, there's no gentle or nice or glossy way to say it. I mean, I, I went headlong into vocational ministry, um, from like academics and then in the marketplace, you know, my husband was getting his THM at Dallas seminary and I was getting what they call the PhD for putting hubby through. And I was doing, you know, the business world. And then we interned at Willow Creek in the early nineties, and then went out to Boston to start our own church. And we didn't have a set. We didn't have a stadia or exponential or new thing network.

We didn't have any of that stuff. We were, and it wasn't like Willow abandoned us. That was never their thing. They were not a church planting movement. They were just giving us a year of training and Buford was kind of funding it, I think. And so we just went out there and started our own 501c3, raised all our own money, did all like a really hard thing, starting a new church in a really hard place in Boston and did it in the hardest possible way, which is like idiots on our own with no support. Okay. Like on the mission field in the mid nineties, doing the exact same thing. Did you do the same thing? Yeah. Totally on our own. Like the whole thing and like back with PTSD. So of course what could possibly go wrong.

Right, right. What we were inherently saying and a lot can go wrong. Like a lot can go wrong and does when you don't have that kind of support. And I remember hearing it said years ago, um, after what I went through that, like the one four letter word that most leaders will never say is help because we, we just don't, we don't, we, we just grind. We keep going. We plow through, we ignore what's going on. We, we, we live for the good of others. We quote a bunch of scripture to tell ourselves to keep going. And the, like, it's just, there's now I'm realizing in counseling psychology. I'm not a therapist, but I've heard, and you start quoting scripture to yourself to like, get yourself out of it.

Like you, you, you do a spiritual bypass rather than experience what you're experiencing and be with God in it. We, we sort of use God to deflect the pain of life. We use scriptural truths to deflect what's really going on. And I believe that as a result, that's why we don't grow. That's why we don't change. We don't experience transformation because we've basically given God the Heisman move. We're like, Hey, yeah, I don't need you. Cause you know, I can do all things in Christ. Even this, I don't need you for this. You know what I mean? It's like, that's just kind of how I know it's just crazy how we are, but that's what I have observed. So Joey, to get back to your question, I, I, I had, I, I was such an idiot that I ignored every symptom that my soul was not well.

And there were symptoms like, you know, have you ever had it happen where, you know, you're a leader or the leader and you're at somebody else's church you're visiting or whatever. And like a hymn comes on and it's like, you just start weeping and you don't know why you can't stop it. And it's not like a Holy spirit weeping. It's like, something's not right. And I can't, I can't do anything about it. And so anyway, that's apparently my husband is dropping in on a live recording. You want to say hi to the podcast? Oh, you drive my five. Okay, good. Okay. No, wait. There you go. You made an action. This is what you have to have when you're out in the wilderness. And this will probably my, my wifi, um, is we've got these sweet little strong things, Jason, I'm sure you know all about them, Joe, you probably do too.

You guys are digital experts. So, you know, this stuff. So nonetheless, a massive, like ignored every symptom, every symptom. There were times I remember like looking in the mirror in the morning and being like, you know, do you even know Mindy Caliguire anymore? Do you know her? Like, do you know what she laughs at? Do you know what she cries about? Do you know what, you know, what she dreams about? Do you know what she's afraid of? And it's like, I wish I had paid attention to that question because I think that was my soul kind of trying to go, hello in here. Like we're saved, but we're not well. And, but I had no imagination for that being not the exact one in the same thing. And we get into that in a little bit in the course.

And it's like, I think that's why, like, how is it? I was just down in the YWAM basin in Kona yesterday. And, you know, people all over the world, all these large, global, passionate, energetic, visionary ministries that we love, that we are, these are the kind of leaders we are, right? And how is it that it could be so categorically predictable that people on the field, whether it's compassion or Christ church or the valley or any, the, any ministry that really cares about mission, isn't just floating along rather predictably could say we can set a clock in our organization for when people start burning out. Yep. Yep. I mean, please tell me, I'm not like calling out YWAM on any of this, like this is.

No, no, no. It's systemic. YWAM, Willow, Saddleback. I mean, you just, every, every one of our heroes. It crosses tribe. It crosses denomination. Exactly. Exactly. It doesn't even matter. It crosses geography. I've been all over the world. Yeah. Me too. Salvation Army around the world, like all these other things. So, and of course, digital spaces. So. Yeah. And digital spaces, there's some nuances there in the digital space for, there's a couple of things that I, that I, that I find are true and that Joey touched on is that people will share things that they wouldn't normally do in a face-to-face interaction without some kind of level of, uh, getting to know you a little bit better, you know, they'll just get right to it, wherever the area of pain is, it's there.

You couple that with the breadth of reach, that, um, digital tends to have where, you know, it was different when you could only physically meet a certain number of people around you geographically to be exposed to the level of pain that people might have. You multiply that times every single person around the globe. It's brilliant. That is willing to instantly share their deepest pain that in some cases you need to call the police about, you know, and get, because someone might die. Right. So you, you ratchet up the urgency along with the volume of people in digital ministry. And you couple that with the sense because of the the geographic distance, while they might share with you things and be, you might be exposed to all the pain, the tools that you have at your disposal to actually help actually are less than if you were physically by somebody and you could say, okay, you know, let's make sure nothing really bad happens.

You couple all of those things together and you just got a recipe for some interesting and odd dynamics that are probably worse for the digital minister than you would have for just your average Joe Schmoe minister missionary. Cause I've been there. Right. It's different in that way. How does the 24/7 nature of it? Yes. Right. Cause it's like people are responding to an, uh, an altar call simultaneous to one another 24/7. Right. And there's no like sequencing. There's not even a line. It's like all in your face the minute somebody hits you. Right. That's like. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's. There's a piece of that. I feel like Mindy that you just touched on that we could gain a lot of guidance from the way that Jesus managed it because you know, he had crowds and that were around him all the time that would follow him when he was just trying to take a break.

So he figured out ways of turning it off by, you know, escaping early in the morning or sleeping in a boat or just random things like that we hear in the story. But we as digital ministers don't feel like we have the permission to turn it off like Jesus did. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a problem. Yeah. I think he had complete comfort walking away from a sea of need in order to reconnect with the father and actually be given instructions to go in a different direction. Yeah. We, so I put myself in the position of that person who was not healed by Jesus because he turned around and left. Right. Right. We need to be, you know, real about those situations because it's at some point he had to turn it off.

And sometimes he just walks in, he just asked the disciples, are you going to feed them? I'm done. Right. Right. Might've been that, you know, there's Mary clouds book boundaries like back in the day. Right. I love that book in it. I remember him making a strong argument for boundaries toward, toward work, which of course is an area that I struggled with and landed myself into such a physical, like, you know, I ended up with physical symptoms that sidelined me because I was such an idiot not to pay attention to the normal way to wake up to this. Um, but you know, I think for, for Jesus, the, the ability to know with great peacefulness, not even anxiety with peacefulness of what God had invited him into and what God hadn't invited him into allowed him to just say yes or no, as the case may have been and, and not get all, you know, like I need permission.

Like, I don't even know that he would have made it use those words that we have to use. He just was like, I'm just doing whatever the father's doing. So here we are. And that, like, I'm not suggesting he was unconcerned about the needs, but he did not let that care that as a human, you have compassion for someone else hijack what God was inviting me into. And cloud in boundaries was suggesting that if you have this sort of overfill life of things that supposedly God has invited you to do, like somehow you've said yes to something other than God. And we have to call that what it is. And it could have looked like another night at the church teaching. It could have looked like kicking up another prayer ministry.

It could have looked like you name the things that cause us to go into overdrive in Jesus name. And the thought that I could have been saying yes to something other than God, and then let's call that what it is. Let's see that. Right? What's the word, Jason? What do we call that? I don't want to say it. I know you don't want to say it. You're not standing in the corner. That's scary. What it is. It's scary. It's scary, but it's like sin. Let's call it here. I have, is it possible that sin could look like ministry? It's so you guys are going to, you know, excommunicate me after this. No, it's like, it's like, we have to get that intense. And I remember one time, like, because this workaholism in the church planning context is rampant.

Right? And we don't, we feel like it's all on us. We got to make it all happen. We got to be there for everybody. We got to do all the things. And I'm not saying there aren't things that need to be done in seasons when something is a little bit more than whatever normal is. But we all know that most of us blow way past that, whatever that used to be. And I remember one time reading the thing that Jesus said to the disciples about like, well, you know, unless you leave your family and leave this and leave that and leave all those things and come after me, then you can have no part of me or whatever. It's one of those verses I'm, I'm butchering. And I got mad. I started talking to God as I was reading the Bible.

I was like, that is not okay. There are families that are dying because some pastor took that verse and trashed their kids. And I'm like, that is not okay. That, and, and so I'm like, you know, have you ever struck up a rather marked conversation? So guys, here's the gentleness. Like, this is a big deal. I don't, I don't know if I've ever told many people this. So he's like, um, God's like, no, go back and read it again. And I was like, well, I know I see what it says. You say, if they leave that, and if they leave that, and if they leave that for the sake of the kingdom, he's like, wait, read it again. For the sake of the kingdom. Okay. What does it not say? For the sake of an ego, for the sake of their inability to say no, we slap kingdom language on all kinds of assignments.

There we go. We make those mental connections and then justify all manner of terrible behaviors to ourselves and others on the basis of kingdom work that was never our particular assignment within the kingdom. And we say yes, because we can't say no, we need to be needed. Our ego feels like we got to fill the whole room up and who's going to do it. If we don't like, there's all kinds of things that that verse does not say. And I do believe that when that assignment comes and there are times when God needs us for the sake of the kingdom, not our definition, but his invitation moment by moment, where we do have sacrifices that get made, but more so is added. But we have a lot of people who've made those sacrifices and generations of kids who do not want to follow the God of their parents.

Well, listen, that could not be more current, I think, than it is today. You look at it, how many pastors that are listening to this, and pastors that are not listening to this, but they should, are now struggling because the pews are empty and people are not coming back. Right? So the church leadership, the church pastors, the church leadership, they start making a priority is how we're going to bring people back in. Only question. And the question that I ask is, at what point you're going to stop running a nonprofit and you're going to start running a church? Yes. Yes. At what point you're going to stop doing that? Because, because again, the question number one I get from churches, when asked me, said, I need to hire a digital pastor.

And I got this guy in my church that likes technology. I like this guy who likes communication. I'm going to promote my communications guy. And I cannot stop saying, I cannot say fast enough, stop picking up anybody. You need somebody that's actually has the pastor call to be in their digital ministry, because there's no time in digital ministry for small talk. When people come and hit you with a problem, they will hit you with a problem. And somebody has to be ready to take care of that soul. And I think today we're losing sight as a church in general, we're losing sight of the ministry because we're getting blighted by the crisis that the churches are seeing themselves in. Instead of like, step back.

I had this conversation with some pastors that they ask about, you know, we cannot get enough volunteers in our church. We got the same people volunteer. And I was like, I don't think you have a volunteer crisis. I have, I think you have a disciple crisis. You see, if you had disciples, you will not be able to don't, there's no need to beg people to serve, to give, to do anything else, because if somebody is a real, a real disciple of Christ, everything else falls in place. And I think today, more than ever, I think there's thousands of pastors just here in America that need to take a break, they need to stop, they need to realign their souls. Just like I'm doing, Jason's doing, other pastors are doing.

Because I think that, for the sake of the kingdom, is where it's not at. Yeah, what if that's the biggest thing? I've been saying this, I was with a group, I think one of the, I've worked with leaders, giving them assignments for different kinds of things. And you guys have been so gracious to talk about your resistance to receiving care for yourselves, right? And I don't think that's abnormal at all. That's very typical. I had one very senior leader of a very global network who will, no one needs to know who, but in the, more in the nonprofit space than in the, um, than direct church, but very familiar with church, very similar dynamics leadership wise. Right. And, uh, and I mean, he, I believe that leader is representative of many, probably everyone on this call.

Like they will leap tall buildings in a single bound. They will stay up for four days, getting a strategic plan ready. They will answer questions forever from lost people. They will, they will put, I mean, they'll eat the second dinner and the third dinner. And I mean, they will just be available to the needs of the community And they have no, they have no, they have very high tolerance for doing difficult things. They cannot take two hours to be still and be with God. That is a harder assignment than build a team, preach a sermon series. And I could not believe it almost got comical. Cause I kept checking in because this was an assignment that through this thing I've given, like, when's that two hour solitude happening?

Meanwhile, like books are being written and like all this kind of stuff and I finally realized it's actually harder for them to do that than to do things where they feel productive. And that's, that just eats at our identity that eats at our belovedness in Jesus. Like we, we don't have permission value to just rest in God's presence for two, two hours. That was the assignment. It's been years. I don't know. Still, I got it. We did, we built a solitude experience for the SOS course team. We were talking about this and we were brainstorming, like, maybe we need to create the same kind of appointment type that you can schedule into your calendar. That is, that you still do the same thing. And it's like a two hour block that you have to do.

And then they were joking. It was Casey. He had the idea. He's like, what if we put the name of the person that you're having an appointment with? Like it's God that you've got an appointment with God coming up. And I was like, I don't know that could be taken the wrong way and out of context. I don't know that I want to try to tell people they're using our software to schedule time or that God's beholden to us, but I think that's everywhere anytime in multiple time zones. But that's true though. How, how many pastors, how many leaders, how many of us, you know, actually prioritize our time with God in a, in a real way? I'm not just, I'm not saying honest conversations about this. I'm not saying, you know, that your prayer time in your office doesn't count.

I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying a day of solitude where you actually are going to dedicate a certain amount of time that you're going to retreat. You're going to like, I'm going to retreat. People are going to have to wait, right? People are going to have to sit in there and wait for a little bit because if I don't have the, my battery is not cool. I'm, I'm not going to be able to help anybody else. Uh, and I think the challenge, the challenge, the tension that is today, I think has more to do with the, the current reality of the churches that they're like, they're running out of strategies to rescue the church, the post-pandemic church. Yesterday, I'm in the meeting, I'm in this fundraising and there's future churches representing my table.

And the conversation was for the common conversation was the same. People left my church. They're not coming back. And I, and I, and I, you know, we're, and you can sense the desperation on, on their voices in terms, you know, what we're going to do. I got to bring people back. And, and it's, there is not a conversation in terms of, you know, God has a plan. We're going to trust him and I have to be ready for when God makes the move. And that's why I think the pastors are missing the point. God will make them his move. And I think he's making through this moment right here, right now. Yeah. He's been making a move for the past few years. And we just have, he's letting pastors, he's letting pastors realize that they need to, to, to refocus and realign.

And it's hard. And can you imagine, can you imagine what floodgates could open? Here's a little story from the history of science. I'll share with you my little history of science thing. This was my, one of my courses I took in college there. And what it gives me is hope that this doesn't need five years, spiritual formation, PhDs. This doesn't need, right? I mean, how, how difficult would it have been for every single one of the guys at that table, guys, women using that term generically, whoever's there to turn and go like, oh, I think I'm just going to prioritize the wellbeing of my soul, like starting today and let God do whatever he wants through my life. And so that's just going to become my focus.

And I'm just going to stay rooted, grounded, that grafted image, right? I'm going to stay there and God can do through me whatever he jolly well pleases. I'm just going to do that. Okay. So immediately stuff starts to happen. When we re-anchor to God, we lay down all the other drivers and we start saluting smartly just to what the Lord is saying and recognizing that we were saluting smartly to other things we thought were God. And we got to, we need help teasing all that out in our brain. Okay. So I know I just said like five really big ideas, but back to the history of science. So in the mid 1800s, there was, um, a really big problem in London and other parts surrounding it where, um, they had a disease that was called child bed fever.

Now imagine this look, picture the cul-de-sac that you live on or the country road, wherever you are, the block in the city that you live on. In that period of time in the mid 1800s, six out of 10 women who gave birth died. What does that do to a community? You've got newborn babies who are alive and need care. You've got husbands slash fathers who are trying to scramble, make life work. You've got food. This is the 1800s. We're not talking like open the refrigerator. This is, this is farming. This is communities. These are women who are actively working, keeping everything up. You've got kids at home being schooled. Chaos. I can't even imagine if you in just one neighborhood lost six out of the 10 childbearing women.

Okay. Um, so naturally the doctors were working so hard to try to get to the bottom of what was going on. So they were having autopsies as fast as they could to try to understand what was happening and they couldn't figure it out. Um, and then another call would be another mom had come into the maternity ward. So those same doctors would go upstairs and deliver babies. Okay. Now the concept of the microbiological world was, was, had, had been discerned, right? There was a lot of advances happening scientifically. They knew there were things that were below the level of what the human eye could discern that were impacting health, but the concept of contagion hadn't yet landed. So the very doctors who were the ones doing the autopsies would go upstairs and deliver new babies and actually be the ones that were introducing the disease to the new moms coming in for delivery.

Okay. These people probably mostly men at that time devoted their entire careers to healing and to being helpers. And as the science was advancing, not shockingly, because you can imagine our resistance. And I think the church is a little bit in this moment right now, our resistance to ever realizing we, in fact, were the ones transmitting disease. It took longer than it should have, but eventually the science prevailed. Guys within a matter of like five years, this horrible epidemic that no one could figure out or stop was gone. Maternal death rates plummeted to what would be a normal sort of risk level, which was minuscule. And guess what they had to do in order to reduce it? Wash their hands.

Couple simple practices. Now there's no running water. There's no hot water. So you got to figure out how to get hot water to the doctors. You got to figure out how to get soap. You got to figure out some things that are a little inconvenient, but it was gone. The whole epidemic was eliminated. Once these simple practices that now, if you think about, you know, we watch, you know, Grey's Anatomy or some other medical thing. Everybody talks about scrubbing in before you go into surgery. Nobody even thinks about it anymore, but there's a reason doctors have a very strict checklist because this is what, this is what, so guys, don't you see the parallel? It's like, this is what's going on in the unseen.

In the unseen, leaders and people are dying inside for lack of lived real-time connection with God. Even though you believe many truths about God that are very important, that is not the same as, am I receiving my life from God moment by moment? And that's what Jesus modeled. When we think of what would Jesus do, what if we reframed that to what would Jesus do? Jesus would moment by moment, day by day, be connecting with the father. And when he needed time away, he would go do that time away because that was the pearl of great price. That was the thing that opens up everything of the way to be human. And that's what I hold great hope. Joey, I really do. I ache over seeing churches even worse now than before the pandemic, in my opinion, at times, having adventure, missing the point.

Like it is, it is, it is, we have had the invitation of the last 500 years to reimagine what being the people of God in a local community or in a digital space, what that could mean. Yeah. And to date, so far, there have been many innovations, many people who are sort of returning to a groundedness and a depth of life to actually the church's original vocation was called soul care. Like that's what, that was what the church did is it cared for souls. And, uh, in this way of Jesus, but anyway, we've had a lot of adventures and missing the point, but I don't think it will take 30 years, 80 years to correct this. If each one of us, right, like, these aren't just ideas. They're like, okay, Jason, what are you going to do tomorrow morning?

Are you going to go grab your jet fuel? Or are you going to like and figure out how to be, how to be still in the Lord's presence and re-serve the new day, re-anchor to truth, not conceptual truth to the person. Right. Anyway, I'm blah, blahing, but I, I love that story. So to your point, Mindy, uh, you know, when in the, in the little course thing, when you talked about the silent retreat and I couldn't do it because I was literally, I had a flight and so I took your like little guide and decided, I decided, well, you gave me a guide, which was great because I felt like I couldn't participate because, you know, there's no internet up in, you know, Oh, the Saturday, the semi-silent retreat on Saturday.

Yes, yes. Is that what you're talking about? Oh, good. Did you do it? So what I did was I took it. I'm like, okay, I've got this. It's got a three hour flight. It's a three hour soldier. That's my silent retreat. So I did it and it was great. Um, when I noticed, you know, that my heart was trying to, you know, it was spitting all over the, you know, the monkey brain was going everywhere. And, um, I also realized that my compulsion to like fill the space with, you know, I had all kinds of Netflix. I had downloaded on my phone. I mean, there's all kinds of, all kinds of things that I could have been doing. Right. Um, and it was, it was a really revealing exercise that all the more punctuated the need for me to have that conversation with Casey, which when I got on the zoom call with him, you know, he's supposed to be like the soul care kind of a counselor.

And I just realized in that moment, it's like, okay, this is the new pastor really, especially in a lot of the work that we're doing digitally. Um, the, the vibe and the, I don't know, the spiritual resonance that I was, you know, feeling at that moment, I'm like, this is it. This is, this is just the same thing that a pastor would do sitting down with someone and really caring for them. That's what it is. It's like, okay, well, this is a lot like church, you know, like a pastor, like caring for somebody. So it, it brought into context, a lot of the other initiatives that are bubbling up, like he gets us, or, you know, a lot of these other sorts of things that I thought to myself, perhaps this is the big opportunity for the church to be the solution rather than the problem.

You know, going back to your original story, you know, thinking of, you know, doctors being the very ones. Right. It may be that the, I don't think our motivations or our heart or anything, no one's, no one's questioning any of that. No one. I mean, we're killing ourselves because of the motivations that we have because of the love, but our methodologies perhaps could be part of the problem where we think that ephemeral event-based experiences actually do transformation if we continue to do them on a weekly basis and just consume information collectively. Could that not be part of the problem? So in my mind, I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm hearing that and I'm, I'm experiencing it on a, on a different level, which oddly enough in my position now, um, after 10 months of, and this is a process I'm still in, but disentangling my career from my God, from my church.

That's something that has never been separated in my soul ever since. I mean, it's never been, I mean, Gary, I'm 52 years old. And for the first time, I'm seeing those three things, my career, my church, and my God as separate things, which that's, that's a process right there. And I'm understanding to a much greater degree. Um, and again, none of this was with any kind of malice or I don't, I think it's vital to keep saying that all the time, as often as we think it's to keep saying it because no one, no one sets out to trash the well-being of their own soul. No one sets out to create institutions that, you know, could be an adventure in missing the point. That's harsh language, but it's never, it's not the intention.

Right. More than those doctors doing their darndest to try to bring, right? Like they're trying to bring science, they're trying to advance the science. They're trying to understand what's going on. Like they were absolutely intending wellness, but had not seen the full picture of what was invisible. And I think that the terms that I've heard in years past and been guilty of myself at times, but I is a huge priority to me is when, when we fall victim of in church leadership settings and stuff like that, I call it functional atheism. And I don't remember where I heard it. It's not original. That's too little. It is. Well, and it's like this idea that we function, we function as if the unseen world or the kingdom, the presence of God, the activity of God, Carla, like you were saying, Joey is like the, the, we function as if that's not the case.

Like you said, we just, we do what we know to do. We rest until we see the move of God. We, we go deep until, and then we're like, but wait, how do we pay the bills? And what if, what if so-and-so doesn't come back? And like, we can hold care about those things. We can care about them, but we don't grab them. We don't grab them. We hold care about them. And we say, God, have your way. You move. Well, the scripture is clear. And I think the most encouraging thing for pastors, digital or in-person everywhere right now, is when Jesus says, I will build my church. Yeah. So, you know, and I know that today, this time is a big struggle for pastors everywhere, not seeing people coming back. Or, and I think, I think more than that, Mindy, is because of that, digital pastors and online pastors, whatever you want to call, they're being left behind.

They're being ignored by the church leadership. They're being like, you're a second-class citizen, because nobody, we cannot pay attention to this digital platform thing, because we need to get people when you're getting on the way. This is just real. Like, this is the reality right now. Oh, upside down. That's so upside down. And I'm telling you, digital pastors right now, they feel alone. They feel, like, ignored because they, I know churches that realign their staff post-COVID, and online pastors are being posted in, like, in-person experience activities to keep their jobs. I've, yeah, I've heard, I've heard this as well. And I think, and again, and it's interesting because, again, go back to these conversations, right, that we have online.

Go back to the experience that Jason just had with, with Jason, like, I'm about to go through that. And, you know, we're talking about this amazing experience that we're having online. Look at what we're doing right now. And I keep thinking, look about, you know, all the money that glue is putting on he gets is a hundred million dollars. Yep. And these people are not going to go to church first to find help. They're going to use digital platforms to connect first with people to develop the relationships. So, again, it's not really the time to actually ignore what Jesus is doing to build his church. No. Because, and I'm not saying here, again, I'm not saying that digital came to replace it. I always said digital is an extension of a local church.

We're always going to need local churches. I remember you saying that. Digital is here to extend your local church. And to ignore your digital pastor, or to put it in the pastor in the sidelines, or to not pay attention to actually God's doing through all this, then I'll tell pastors, if you think that way, you need soul care. You need some time with God. I mean, I'm really not trying to be funny. I'm like, you need soul care. Because that's the difference between running a nonprofit and actually going back to your calling. Because I believe every pastor has a calling. Don't depart from your calling. But you will at the moment that you're still no longer is being cared for, right? We're all at risk when that, I mean, isn't it the best?

Most impressive strategy of the enemy. Like, what's the best thing you can do to every single Christian leader? Unplug them from the electrical source. And then you're just a lamp. You're not even bright. You hope the lampshade was white and it passed off a little bit of light through that or something. Like, it's just, it's not, it's the most ridiculous thing. Who are we when we're plugged in? We're a completely different entity. But the one thing I would say to digital pastors, and I do feel so sad for those who feel not seen, not valued. Like, that's just such a lonely, achy. Like, you're a visionary. You're out there. You're pioneering new places. You're seeing fruit. And then you get the lights cut out from under you.

I mean, that's really hard. The one thing I will say is you've got the power of the kingdom, not at your disposal to do whatever you want with, but that's what's available to you every minute, even while you're listening to us right now. And God will build his church, exactly like God will build, you or your pastor might try to build their church, but God will build his church. And you have a critical part in that, and you might not even know what that is yet. You might think you know, but you don't know. And having the humility that I don't know, but I know I'm part of this. And to move into slower paces, a deeper connection with God, not numbing out to the pain, the frustration, the disillusionment, the disappointment that we've all had.

And finding ways to rest in God, right where you are, right? Even if your heart is for digital and you had to take a paying job, creating set designs and services, like that's real. I get that we have to feed our families. We got to do, but the Lord knows, he knows your heart. He knows your gifting. He knows your passion. And I have seen unbelievable things open up when we choose to rest ourselves in God's presence to, like Matthew 11 would suggest to, you know, Jesus says, walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it, learn the unforced rhythms of grace. And I am crazy enough to believe, but I also have seen it and lived it that when you live in those unforced rhythms of grace, you will not be able to stop what God is going to do through you.

And whether it comes through, he gets us, which could flood coming guys, there is a flood coming. Who is going to catch these people who, who is ready. And they're not walking through the front doors and sitting in your sanctuary. Who's going to catch these people who knows how like Casey to sit and hold space with people without pulling out a tool belt and bludgeoning people with things. Like who knows how to just hold space with people in Jesus' name. And if we can do that, I believe the God of the universe is the one that's going to meet them in those spaces. Like Casey's a wonderful man, but you met Jesus through that connection with Casey, not just Casey. So it's like, that's the beauty of these new ways of engaging and being in with people.

Like, you don't know what, when you choose to live in those unforced rhythms, anchored deeply to the real-time presence of God with you, you won't be able to stop what God's going to do. And the, and the, the, you will not have to defend your cause is I guess what I'm trying to say. There will be undeniable fruit that you won't, you don't even have to strat plan your way into. You will not have to do strat ops to get there. You will not have to do any of those other things. Now you may along the way, do some of those things, but the driver is the spirit of the living God. And you're going to see fruit out of it. That's not because you were so smart, not because you're so clever. I was just telling the story yesterday.

I won't bore you with the details, but it's like, in the end, it's way better to be led than smart. The world's smart, hardworking people can do. I don't, I don't want the story of my life, the headline of my life to be what a relatively intelligent, hardworking person could do like that. We've had enough of that. That's functional atheism. The world has enough atheism. We need, we need people alive to the living God and able to be conduits of the spirit. And that's what you guys are poised to do. Yeah, there's like, every time I hear about he gets us. There's two things that pop off in my head. One is, I think what they meant to say was that Jesus understands us. But the other thing is, um, um, we're up the church.

Uh, we're all he has to work with. He gets us, you know, all of our, all of our craziness and all of our, uh, uh, dysfunction. That's who Jesus gets. Right. And so all the more reason to have our souls in order when it comes time to help others under understand how much Jesus does understand what they've go through. Um, yeah, us feeling the same anxiety that we have people calling in and the, the challenge to us and Peter that we associate with evangelism is that we should be ready to be prepared to give a, what is it? Defense for the hope we have. Yeah. And I think a lot of us think that is a, a logical, be ready to tell people certain precepts about God. And again, these are important. I'm not diminishing the importance of truths about God, but friends, do we have hope?

Yeah. Yeah. We have hope. And is that one asking you, is your hope so evident that anyone is asking you, who is your God? What is your, what is your hope? And I would hope that the kinds of pastors and volunteers and leaders and digital pastors, whoever that's on the other end of this, who gets us campaign is not bringing principles and precepts, but is actually able to hold space and verbally or even non-verbally convey that they are a person of hope. Yeah. I, the thing I, I, I finally, I got a volunteer now being part of it. And, and, and I said, don't, uh, don't talk about a church initially, just build a relationship because that's, and I said, I want to be able to think this way because after a couple messages, I'm exchanging with people conversations, I start thinking, man, this person had absolutely, I asked myself, did they have anybody else to talk about this?

They had to go to a platform to share their hearts. Like, is it possible that this person didn't have anybody in their lives that they could just call and say, Hey, I need to talk to you about this. And if, if, if that's not enough red flag for the church today to realize how much we're absent from our own communities, because people know where we are, they know our address, but still they rather go to a platform to desperately to ask somebody for a help. And I think again, that's, to me, that's the opportunity. That's when we as a church, we have the opportunity to open our eyes and say, Hey, there's an opportunity here to really connect with people. This is not a problem. This is not an issue.

This is an opportunity. Are we ready for it? Like, like you said, the harvest is, it is plentiful. Like it's there, ready, waiting. But, but are we ready to, to embrace, like you said, the flood that's coming because it is coming and, and people are finding a way to have those conversations. Um, and are we ready? Even that's why, that's why I think this conversation is so vital right now to digital pastors, to in-person experienced pastors, to all kinds of pastors, to, to do your, your self-examination right now in your soul, in your spirit, and verify, am I, am I ready for what God's going to bring next? And because it is our responsibility to maintain that relationship with him. It is. And, and I just, I, I want to not evoke fear or condemnation in anyone, wherever, not, I know you don't either.

I'm just saying like, we all get how easy it is to trash the well-being of your soul in the middle of ministry. It would be more considered the norm and expected. I'd be shocked. I, I mean, I've talked to people in rooms all over the world, all over the U S this is more the norm than not. And so even with the big bearing down on us that he gets up flood of people that's coming, I would say, don't look at that right now. Yeah. It's cool. It's going to happen. God's in it. Let's just let that be on its path. Be grateful that the full flood hasn't yet kicked in yet. And let this time be a call to action. That's about you and your real time in the moment. Like, what is it that's going to help you stay connected to God?

That's could be as different as every person that listens to this. If there's a way that soul care or any other great ministry that can help you in that, that's our charter. Um, that's this team DC ends here to support you in that, like whatever, whatever we can do, um, to support one another in this. Um, it's okay for now to just say that needs to be my focus. I don't, I don't have anything to give until, until I have something to give and I can't put a timeline on it. I can't put it, whatever I need to get to the point where, you know, talks about being a cheerful giver that each one of us gives, you know, we preach on tithing, right? You know, each of us should give, you've decided in our heart to give not reluctantly or under compulsion, but God loves a cheerful giver.

I remember in my recovery, soul recovery season, I, again, it was through boundaries. I was, I noticed that verse. Um, and you know, it's like, we don't only give money, we give time, we give energy, we give capacity, gifting, we give all that stuff. And I was in that season. I'll speak for myself. I'm not saying for anybody else, but I, if I was honest and I had to get to the point of being honest and Jason, that's what a journal helped me with. Cause like, I was not being a little plug, silent plug, all this, spiritual bypass is what we do. Right. And we just keep going, buck up a little camper, whatever. I was getting to the point where I was willing to be honest and I had to be honest and go almost every single thing I'm doing for the ministry was filled with resentment and under compulsion.

What is compulsion? I have to do it. If I don't do it, somebody else, I, somebody is making. And if I, and I, I really remember writing about this in my journals, like, oh my gosh, like if I literally considered a vow that I will only do things that are coming freely out of what I have in my heart to give. Cause it's like, I could write you a $10 million check for whatever you care about, but that thing is going to bounce. I do not have that in my checking account to give. And we write tracks that are being overdrawn all the time to our families, to our ministries or whatever we are constantly in overdraft mode. Um, and that's not generous is not generous for me to give you a $10 million check.

It's not for a minute. You're like, that's awesome. And then you're like, this sucks. I, I, I bought $250,000 worth of stuff on that thinking that the check was going to clear, right? Like we cause harm in our systems because we're writing checks that are not going to clear. And if we said, have I made a vow and I did for a while, um, and I hope I'm still living it, that I'm only going to give what I have in my heart to give. And I draw a line at doing anything reluctantly or under compulsion. And cause we read that verse and we're like, okay, so slap on a happy face and keep giving. Cause God loves a cheerful giver. And that's not the point of the verse at all. When it's coming out of overflow.

Yes. There's joy. There's cheerfulness. There's delight. Even there's, there's like, it's full of all kinds of fun stuff, but when it's not, it, it, that's the grind. That's the, that's the death by church for us in ministry. It is, it is serious. And I had to stay in that verse. I think I was in that verse for like a year or two because I was so challenged by it, confronted by it, had a hard time living by it, but I, I did, I did come to the point where I was starting to live that way. Like I would literally, people would ask me to do a thing and I would, I had learned to go, do I have this in my heart to give? I had to do that check. Do I have it in my heart to give? And then I would decide accordingly.

Do you know the next verse? Like I didn't make it to the next verse for like two years. I'm so glad it didn't, but the next person I'm going to butcher it. I don't have it in front of me, but it's like this, you know, and God is able to make all things abound to you so that in all things and in all circumstances, at all times you'll have whatever you need. But I don't think you get to that until you set that boundary because you're that those checks will clear. The ones we write will not. You see the difference? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I could talk to you for four days. I love this. Let me tell you, I don't want to, um, I want to be respectful of everybody's time here, but we cannot go without you telling us about Soul Care.

Tell us about Soul Care. What is, what is, what it is, Soul Care Ministry? No, you're talking about the actual like training stuff, not the concept of Soul Care, because that's always what you're talking about. Exactly. No, but I'm talking about the ministry now. So pastors can understand what you offer as a ministry. In fact, when I, when people say what is Soul Care, I usually say there's like three years, there's Soul Care is my personal way of life. This is how I've learned to, to be a follower of Jesus in the world. And yes, right. It's also become a message that I care a ton about. And so some of what Soul Care is, is I speak at events or retreats and that kind of stuff, help write books, that kind of stuff.

That's, that's about getting message out. But the really fun thing for me in this season of my life is that there is a whole team of people coming around this message and this way of life, trying to help it be as accessible to as many people globally as we can. And so that's where new like online digital communities have spun up. It's called the Soul Care Collective. People can go to collective.soulcare.com. They can join that community. It's free, global. There's people doing great stuff, digital events, in-person events. We should be learning more from you guys about how we're using it to create community and digital spaces. But we're learning. And so that's, that's one facet of it. We offer these spiritual directions, services and coaching services.

And that, you know, sometimes individuals find us and we, we serve them as individuals and everything gets sort of handled through the digital platform. So everything is done in digital spaces. Um, and then some of our work in that services realm is with organizations where we have partnerships with some larger churches that are offering this as an HR service to their staff. So our team supports that church. We invoice that church and their HR department covers the direction and coaching for that organization. We have another one that's spinning up this month that wants to do their global ministry. They have people all over the place in really hard places. And so having a digital way to come alongside them with something that is works for them, it's just a, such a sweet opportunity for us to serve.

And then the third newer way is all around these, um, sort of digital courses. But the really cool thing is that sort of end up bundling together, some of the writing, some of the in-person digital in-person experiences of spiritual direction and that, and that's the soul care access that we are just doing a pilot of right now with the hopes that as we get feedback and make improvements, it's something we can offer, um, in a more, you know, repeatable turn way, um, to do our part for this. So that's what soul care is now an organization. And it's a term that many, many people use. I'm certainly not the only one in 1998, I did snag soulcare.com. So I was smart enough to listen. I was smart enough to listen to the tech people in my life that said, you should register that domain name to which I said, what does that mean?

And they're like, well, you're doing all this soul care stuff. You should register soulcare.com. I said, what is that? What would I ever use that for? In 1998, who knew, right? You guys probably did. Yeah. No, that's, uh, I'll make sure that we share, um, your website, uh, on the description. So make sure to look forward to that and make sure people can see it and, and to reach out to you. I'm telling you now by experience that it is fantastic. I mean, it's so good. And I cannot wait to finish it. You're right. It's kind of interesting. I cannot go to the next session. Yeah, she did it that way. I was like, that was tricky. I was like, I want to finish this thing in two days. I was like, I want to finish this thing in two days, right?

And I'm like, go to the next step, session two. And I was like, but it doesn't show anything. Where's the video? Right. I was like, wow. Wow. She really got the right people around to, to, to put this thing together. Cause you cannot cheat the system. You just can't, right? You can't like, it doesn't matter. You can still binge your Netflix, but you can't binge soulcare, buddy. There's no family and friends plan here. It's like, if you're in it, you're in it and you have to go through it. So I was like, oh, I surrender. I love it. I'll surrender. I'll do it. That's fine. But maybe listen, thank you so much though, for your time. Thank you. I'm really praying for you, the ministry and, um, uh, in the, how much, how many good things I think are going to come out of this and how many pastors are actually going to get lift up because of what you're doing.

We want to help. And I hope they, I hope these pastors are listening to like, because this is one thing I, I really, uh, I love about what you're doing is that you're really focusing on our leadership. The best really need this. Second thing is, um, I realize even though I'm in a season where I need it, um, I think by the time you realize you need it, it's too late. Um, and, and I think pastors listening to this thinking my church is going great. My family is great. My life is great. And I thinking, yeah, you really need to soak here and take care of it because that's usually where we, we get deceived that we think everything's going okay. I don't need help. And, and, and I, I really encourage you every pastor, regardless of where you are in your season to just check this out, to go check it out and take a look at it.

And, and, and, and just, and, and I promise you're going to help you, uh, whatever season you are in your ministry, but I appreciate that. Jason, I always, uh, uh, uh, we always have fun doing this thing here. Oh yeah. We talk to people and, and we can spend hours, but man, I, I really appreciate it. I am actually, Mindy, um, uh, I already look at your websites. I'm looking for, to actually come back to Colorado to see one of their, there's been some time where it is. This is all this program. And, uh, the other thing we do, I didn't even think to mention it. Um, it's been building and growing is we do a lot of support for people on sabbatical. So we have a lot of different ways to support people during before, during, and after a sabbatical, sometimes with physical space, sometimes just with spiritual direction, sometimes with an ingoing and outgoing consultation about how to optimize that season.

Cause it's sadly, it's possible to really squander a sabbatical. So we are, we are coming alongside leaders in a lot of places, uh, around sabbatical as well. And yeah, so thanks. Thanks for, um, the invitation with you guys. You know, I've been a fangirl of everything you're doing. And for ever since I met you, you know, I came in and I came out a believer. I know. I was in Colorado. That's why we had that first meeting. There we go, right? I know we're in Colorado. It was just an amazing meeting, but I'm so glad we, we got to connect this way here, have this conversation. I say, listen, have a great day, everybody. Have a great weekend. Um, and we'll, we'll go from here. Love it. Thanks. Glad to join you guys whenever.

See you all.