EP261 - Pocket Pulpit Podcast Takeover

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Church Digital Podcast. Jeff here. We are doing another bonus episode. We're going to do a podcast takeover. That's right. Somebody else is running their show on the Church Digital Podcast here this Thursday. We are in the Church Digital in the middle of season four talking about Jesus, Gamers, and Church. But we're going to pause every Thursday. We're going to feature somebody, one of the shows from the TCD Podcast Network. And this week, we're featuring Hector Martinez and Sarah Kendrick. That's right. We're digging in on the Pocket Pulpit Podcast. Say that three times fast. I challenge you. I dare you. Well, go ahead and wait. Let's see. One, two. All right. I'm kidding.

I'm not really going to wait for the third time. Hey, listen, these guys are great. Dynamic duo with a unique perspective. It's actually one of the things that first attracted me to their show maybe a year ago was their perspective of using social media for ministry and social media within the church, like for discipleship, social media and disciple. Like some of their perspective, I was like, I'm not sure you can do that. And then like I actually dug into it and listened. I was like, this is really, this is really, really good. And so I love their unique perspective. I love the fact they love Twitter as much as they do. They're all in Twitter, even though they're relatively new into the space.

But you know what? That's cool as well. And so what I really love here is their interview. And they were so gracious to give it to me so that I can let you listen to it. They interviewed the Joe Saxon a couple months ago. And it's an incredible interview. And I am so excited that you get to hear it right now. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to get out of the way. And I'm going to let Hector and I'm going to let Sarah from the Pocket Pulpit podcast dive in here with this interview of Joe Saxon. Wait one second. If you want to, if you love these guys, if you like this podcast, go ahead and click over to the show notes, subscribe to their podcast. And if you want to check out maybe some of the other shows we're doing through the TCD podcast network, you can click on that link as well.

Both are in the show notes or go to the church.digital slash podcast. But either way, there's some great opportunities to get exposed to some fresh ideas about what digital ministry looks like in social media. And here's what I'm going to do now. I'm really going to shut up. And let me get you connected to Sarah, to Hector and their interview of Joe Saxon. All right, everybody, here you go. The way ministry is going to happen with us in the things that I lead, in the ways that I lead, have to have that level of tangible vulnerability, have to have that level of showing up where I'm a learner too, you're a learner too. But also we don't need to have a big production over this. Yeah, we do production quality and all that kind of stuff as and when we can.

But I mean, as a character, as a person, we show up as human beings. And if we're grieving today, we're grieving. If we're happy today, if we're angry today, the gamut of the human condition is now to be seen. Because I see that in the Bible. I just don't, sometimes I just don't see that in the events that we do. You're listening to the Pocket Pulpit Podcast with Sarah Kinzer and Hector Martinez, part of the TCD Podcast Network. Hey all, welcome again to another episode of the Pocket Pulpit. On the Pocket Pulpit, we're exploring social media and the intersection of social media ministry, really how people are using the digital space to build community, to minister, to see people and to really impact the world and impact the people around them online and in online spaces.

It's just been such a great exploration. As you heard, we are part of the Church Digital Podcast Network now. That's been a great journey for us to be on as well. So make sure you check that out as well. Today I'm joined by my co-host, Sarah. Hey, hey. Hey, Sarah. And today we also have our friend Jo Saxton on the show. Hi. Hey, so good to have you here. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Absolutely. This is, I'm excited for this conversation and just to hear a little bit about, yeah, just online communities and a few other things. I think especially, I don't know about you, Sarah, but especially just kind of where conversations online have been in the last couple weeks. I think this is just a really great conversation to have.

Yeah, timely. Yeah, absolutely. So y'all may already know Jo as an author, a speaker and teacher, podcast host, leadership coach. She's dedicated her career to developing leadership teams and investing in women in leadership. And like, I could list everything she's done and tell you much. I tell you how much I love like everything she touches, like her last book, Ready to Rise or her podcast with Steph O'Brien, Lead Stories podcast, but that would take up all her time. And she's a busy, busy lady. So we are so grateful that she's taken time to talk to us today. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. So Joe, outside of the, what you do kind of categories, who, who are you and who are your people? What is, what's your world like?

My world is pretty ordinary, really. I am a, like all of us, I'm a Brit. I'm a Nigerian Brit. I grew up in London. So my family are all around the world. Um, my people, my people span from Nigeria, um, England, Hong Kong, my brother lives in Hong Kong and, and we're in the States in Minneapolis. Um, I'm married, um, to a guy who is in FinTech and I have two teenage girls. And so when I'm not doing the work kind of thing, I am doing carpool or, or talking with teenage girls about their, their dramas, um, or shopping at Target. And, um, yeah, that it's a, it's an ordinary world, really. Oh yeah. We have a dog. We have a dog. That's the other thing. What's your dog's name? His name is Mungo. Is Mungo a good dog?

No, no. Excellent. He, um, is a canned carrier like Toto in the Wizard of Oz. And he, he is a pain, but he is a very loved pain by our household. So, you know, you love the people who love the dog. So that's the thing. Best kind of pain. Apparently. Apparently. Yeah. Well, Joe, uh, what, before we started, what, what platforms are you on and what's your preferred platform? Um, my preferred platform probably varies. So, I mean, apparently I have a Pinterest account, um, from back in the day when I was saving recipes I was never going to do and planning house things I was never going to do or clothes I was never going to buy. So that's there. Um, I have a Twitter account. I've fallen out of love with Twitter currently.

Um, I have a Facebook page, personal page, and I have a kind of author page. Instagram is probably the one I use most. Um, I think I do have a YouTube channel. I just haven't used it very well and LinkedIn as well. LinkedIn. So to be honest, at different moments, different things become more, um, critical to my work and life by ebb and flow. Cool. Cool. Cool. Well, the heart of our podcast is talking about doing ministry online and you do a phenomenal job of this and you build community and train people like no one else. And I'm going to try not to gush, which it might already be too late. But you, Joe, you already know how much I like the people I like, and you know how much I like you. So it's just, it might just be what it is, but I found you a couple of years ago speaking at a conference, maybe if, and I know I looked you up on YouTube and watched some of the messages you'd given.

I remember sitting at lunch with some coworkers and talking about if we could eat lunch with anyone, who would we, who would we pick to be at our table? And I picked you. And partly because I was impressed with your messages and stuff, but also because I thought like you would accept the invite because it felt like even just from hearing you speak that maybe we were already friends. Like it was just, you're so personal and connect so well. And so that was, that was where you were a couple of years ago. Then that brings us to the part of the story that everyone's story goes right now. And then 2020 happened. And so conferences and book tours and all those things just shut down and you and everybody else in the world had to go online.

Yeah. Yeah. Sarah's told me a little bit about the tea time, which, you know, I, I got a little bit of, a little bit of understanding what that was. Uh, I, I unfortunately didn't get to see any of those, but just kind of understanding that it really is just, this was something you started in the pandemic if I remember correctly. And so we, we actually haven't talked to anybody who's used Instagram or Facebook live as a way to invest in people. Yeah. So I'm interested in a little bit of, of how you came to the idea and then kind of the journey of where that went. Yeah. I, I think what happened was I'd released a book and I was one of the joyous people who book had come out in March, 2020 way before any, any of us knew, or was it April the 7th?

I don't know. You know, that blurry time when we were just at home and we had a tour and all of these things planned and everything fell through the floor as, and, and needed to, and needed to fall through the floor. But I was kind of left thinking, what do we do now? How do you connect with people now? Um, and like everybody, there was that sense of shock and fear and my family are all around the world. And I'm like, I can't see anybody. I can't be in it. I don't know how we do this. I don't know how we function. Um, and knowing that I clearly wouldn't be the only person who felt that way. And, um, I remember talking to one of my team and I said, you know, if I did it and they were saying, you could do this online, do that online.

I said, honestly, I don't want to do, I don't know how to do a conference online or all of the event online. I'm not tech savvy. I know it's necessary. I like it for the most part, but I joined Instagram to give my family a photo album. I didn't join it for any other reason. The rest of it was just weird to me. Um, and that, so, and to stay in touch with, I use Facebook to stay in touch with my, my college friends overseas. Do you know what I mean? All of that kind of stuff. But I remember saying to a member of the team, if I did anything with people, I just have a cup of tea. I don't want to do a sermon online. I don't want to do that. I'm just going to have a cup of tea with people. I can't be slick because I'm not slick.

And if I try and be slick, it's going to fail after about three days. Do you know what I mean? I said, I need to just do what I do. And what I do is have snacks. You know what I mean? And, um, and I, and I said, there was that piece. And so, and then alongside it, it was, if you feel called to minister to people, does that change because it's a lockdown or does the vehicle change? And I think I had to reckon with that the platforms and the stages and the events were vehicles. They weren't an end in themselves. They were just a vehicle for serving people. So what does it look like to serve people now? Um, so I just decided to get on and have, and have a cup of tea in people's presence. I mean, really that was, that was the, that was the beginning goal of just, and I read bits of the book initially.

And then I would chat to people about how their day was or a blog I'd read or, um, something I'd seen. And, and then I, and I would kind of hook my phone to my laptop so I could do Facebook and Instagram at once. So I would kind of be switching between who I saw and who I chatted to and realized after, and I did them every day. I did it every day, three o'clock, well, Monday to Friday, three o'clock. And it's initially it was like a 10 minute thing, a 15 minute thing. And then, and then I think as we watched current events during 2020, and as people would do repeat appearances, do you know what I mean? Um, you build community by being regular, by being consistent in some way and by being accessible.

So I'd ask what people were drinking and, and then I, obviously I am an extrovert processor, so I don't really think about what I'm saying. And so then you'd say something, I, you know, I'm also opinionated. So I'd say something and then you'd realize you'd get some pushback or just response like, you know, eggnog is disgusting or things like that, which I believe it is. I think it is Christmas phlegm and you say things and then you realize there's a, you know, you build rapport with people and, and I think that's how the community began to emerge. And then alongside that, there are a number of events happening in 2020, the death of George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd, it coming to light about the death of Ahmaud Arbery and stuff.

So there's these conversations which are happening around that as well. And how do I live into that? And yeah, here you are having a cup of tea with people, but your heart is breaking. And actually I'm mad. I'm angry about this consistent stream of injustice around black bodies and other people coming to say they're angry and they're upset and they're frustrated too. So I think there was this, I think a combination of just showing up and being there live and having a few minutes and then hearing from people. Actually, I've been kind of gearing my day around this 15 minute moment and connecting with a lot of caregivers who are like, welcome everybody to our world where everybody has been remote.

It kept on evolving from there. I don't know that I ever had much planned. It was just, it was just a goal to have a cup of tea with people. It definitely became part of like my routine. I remember like, so you're, it was three o'clock for you. It was four o'clock for me. And it was like, the kids were home all the time. I set up a tent in our backyard so that I could have a place to go do some work that wasn't inside of my house. I'd be like, I'm going to work and go to the tent in my backyard. I would go sit in my hammock in the summer. And I remember that you don't like eggnog. I also remember like the commentary about seltzer water and how it tastes like, like yesterday, like a memory. But also like, I hear how you say like, this wasn't something that you were trained to do.

And this wasn't something that you felt particularly gifted at. It was just something you could do and like a different, a different vehicle. And you just got in and you learned to drive and that you were yourself in the driver's seat. I remember it was very powerful to me that you, you got on after George Floyd. And I just remember that like, you didn't have all the answers and you didn't have an explanation, but you had tears. And I remember just thinking like your tears and the quiet in that moment was, was like a whole sermon unto itself. That vulnerability was teaching and touching, you know, those times it built a safe place in my day where I could go and have a normal conversation when no conversations felt normal.

Yeah. And I, and I remember, you know, like, like talking about how to keep a plant alive or, um, the, the way that people would reply to you in the feed and you were very natural and including them in the conversation. And I think that's just part of who you are as an includer. And I mean, even on YouTube, I thought I was like, Oh, Joe and I are now friends. We've never, you know, I've seen Joe, I've seen her talk. And so we're now friends apparently, but it made that safe space. Do you think that that forum or that vehicle, do you think it's still relevant or is that time shifted? What do you think? Um, I think the intensity of that time has shifted. I think the intensity for sure, because at that point we were kind of, we were at home.

We needed to be at home. Everybody had to stay at home. There was no vaccine. There wasn't even a full awareness of what we were dealing with. Um, and around just a sense of around the world, um, because there were people who would come from different countries, um, that we were in this spot. And so then the, and our lives have been completely deconstructed. So there, there was this desperate need for some kind of normality, some kind of rhythm, some kind of arc of the week. I think now there is a, I, I think we have more mobility and more movement and more freedom of movement. And people want that, you know, and people's jobs and things are, are, are still working out certain things. But is, I think, is there still a place?

Yeah, I do think there is still a place because I, because the relationships that were built were real for people and the, and the conversations were important, but in the same way that I had to learn not to be wedded to the vehicle of, of a physical building, I think it's the same learning. You don't, you learn not to be wedded to a particular vehicle of afternoon tea Monday to Friday. Um, and, and it's holding it lightly and, and observing what serves people now. Not even what should I do now, but what serves people now? And to know what serves people now, you have to observe their context. You have to observe their conditions to say, well, maybe they don't need it every day, but maybe once a month or once a week is appropriate.

It may be a rambling, open-ended conversation may not be as important as a specific thing because you've been on a journey together and you don't want to go around in circles. So it's asking what serves people best, what serves your life best? You know, their lives have changed. My life has changed. My kids' lives have changed. And you have to hold all of those things with open hands and just say, okay, now what fits? I don't know how we can have the platforms that we have digitally and us not use them in some way. Yeah. Because they are, they are, for as long as they're here to stay something in terms of our ministry, there is here to stay as well or needs to be. Absolutely. Absolutely. The thing we talk about, like the vehicle has changed, but the thing that you said following George Floyd that really stood out to me and changed a lot about how I thought about doing ministry was you said, you know, we've, we've done these things.

We've had these, we go to these conferences and we listen to these things. And, and for what, like, are we changing or is it, does it matter? And I just remember thinking like, you know, as leaders were to equip people for works of service, not gathered together for a feeling. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, and I think that's a challenge for us on social media as well, because I remember I, in that, in the week after George's murder, um, there was a lot of, okay, let's all listen and learn to black voices. I think I gained 35,000 followers in two days. I mean, it was, it was jarring. It was, it was discombobulating. It was, it was like that it was weird. And on one level, and so the tea times grew and were bigger and all these things as well, because people were coming to here and how do you serve this, this audience who are hungry and who are trying to work things out and how do you deal with your own trauma and your own fear and your processing with your kids.

And obviously I live in Minneapolis. So, you know, how do you deal with all of these things that are happening on you in your moment, in your town, in your cities? Um, I'm not downtown, but I'm close enough. I'm a black woman and living in these times, all of us have been impacted in to a degree, but you know, the other interesting thing that happens as well is that the times there is a marked, I have a marked loss of followers. Whenever I talk about being black, whenever I talk about the black experience, when I talk about Breonna Taylor, when I talk about, I just noticed it. And I mean, in the hundreds. And so in the same way that our physical realities, we can buy the books, we can go to events and stuff.

We can learn all these things. We can ask all these questions. That same reality happened on social media as well, where it's easy to put a black square up and to follow various people, but it's interesting to watch the losses as well that happened at that time and what they are geared around and that, and for us to work out how, how fragile, how low is the bar we're willing to go on some of these things? Yeah. One. And I guess like one of the, the kind of the things that I keep hearing and thinking about is like the tea time. It was this place where, you know, you're offering a place for people to show up. Yeah. Right. But at the same time, like in the larger conversation, in the context of larger conversations, it's like, but, but are you allowed to show up?

Right. And so this idea that like community is where everyone gets to show up, that everyone is contributing, that everyone is, is, has some opportunity of being heard on some scale. And that whether it is, it's not just about, as Sarah touched on this, it's not just about getting up there to teach, getting up there to, to be the person that people are listening to, but rather that, you know, we are learning from one another. We are learning that, you know, the, the, the places, the things, the, the thoughts, the emotions, like all of those things contribute to us being able to learn from one another. And if, if we have a place where, I guess the structure of something that, that historically has been built is that the person leading can't show up.

Yeah. Like there's something wrong because they're the person that's supposed to, to, to be the most there, you know? Um, and if they can't be there, Sarah touched on vulnerability, if they can't be there and be vulnerable and like, this is where I am and how I come today, then there, there's something missing in that community. I won't go as far as to say the community doesn't exist, but there is at least something missing. Yeah. I think that, I, I, I think that was a huge learning for me and a huge moment to cross for me early on to say, how do you want to do this? Because if you were doing a tour or whatever, or doing an event, like you say, you show up and you bring a word today and a devotional, all that kind of stuff.

And, and, um, or you speak authoritatively based on your knowledge. Um, and I, I thought one that wasn't sustainable and also that wasn't appropriate. It's, it just didn't feel appropriate in the, in the moment when there is so much fear, I mean, people were losing family members. There's so much loss. People were afraid and I was afraid. I was, I was, um, dealing with loss. My loss wasn't personal bereavement of somebody, but it was a loss of career and loss of opportunities and things that would not be easily remedied by any stretch. And, and so I had to keep on up and, and, and when issues revolving around race came up, I'm like, how am I going to show up? And I'm like, I'm tired. I'm like, you don't have to be, this is a free service.

You don't have to stay, but I have to show up how I feel today. And if you don't like it, you know what I mean? You can go, but this is how I'm going to be. The irony is that I think the tea time, um, even though I stopped doing tea time at the end, I did it for about a year or so. I ran it to the end of the year. That piece stayed. That piece stayed in terms of the way ministry is going to happen with us in the things that I lead in the ways that I lead have to have that level of tangible vulnerability, have to have that level of showing up where I'm a learner too, you're a learner too, but also we don't need to have a big production over this. Yeah. We do production quality and all that kind of stuff as and when we can, but I mean, as a character, as a person, we show up as human beings.

And if we're grieving today, we're grieving, if we're happy today, if we're angry today, the gamut of the human condition is allowed to be seen. Cause I see that in the Bible. I just don't, sometimes I just don't see that in the events that we do. Yeah. Well, there did come that day where no amount of begging from me in the comments could keep you doing it every day and you shifted and you've talked a bit about like the, the necessity not to be married to the vehicle, but to the, but to the heart of the ministry. And, and so the other thing that I've been very, I feel, I count myself very blessed to be a part of it is, is the leadership community. The thing that I see about the leadership community is that there you are able to do what so many people we've talked to, like, so to the episode that released today, as we're recording is Isaac Petit Frayer.

And he has this incredible ministry where he puts the word of God in front of the people of God. And it is beautiful. And we got to a point in the conversation. I said, well, how do you know that, that they are now taking it and carrying it out into the world? And he was like, that's the question, isn't it? And so that's something that is, is definitely being evaluated by people in online ministry is how do, how do I know? But it is also the thing that is happening. It's the same critique that you can say of in-person ministry. How do you know that these people are going to go out and do this? Absolutely. Because that's the end goal. But in the leadership community, the privilege of being a part of that is that you get to see that people are taking the discipleship, the equipping that you are doing and that you are giving them and they are growing and they are sharing the changes that are happening in their lives and in their ministry and in their leadership because of the influence of that community.

I wanted to mention the vehicle that that is in because it is interesting because it's, it's a mighty networks. Yeah. Which is cool because there are people who are going to have thoughts and feelings about Facebook groups and communities. There's people who have thoughts and feelings about all the different things and you're never going to get them to get on there. And so like the mighty networks thing allows you to have your own school bus. Yeah. Yeah. It felt important to do that. It felt important to have a space, which was, and also because I'm, I, you know, I look at Facebook and every sort of thing, I'm like, yes. And then there are other things where I'm like, but not that. Yes. But in terms of a community that I'm building, I don't, do you remember those days where everything just went shut down?

I mean, when Facebook and Instagram weren't working and everybody lost their life. I'm like, yeah, no, you know, the sky is falling and it may not fall again, but still for, if you're trying to cultivate a community, the whole goal of the leadership coaching communities to cultivate leaders and for it to be a space, I can't be owned by somebody else in that kind of a way. I can't, I need it. I needed it to be hosted in a different, that, that tool did not serve it as fully as I needed it to. And, and I, I wanted to create a community whereby there was that ongoing interaction where people, where there was room for people to come up and park as it were, have their seat on that bus and travel together.

And I needed, I needed a vehicle that would serve that goal. You know, with all of these things in terms of social media ministry, it's like what vehicle is available that serves that goal? The reason why I'm not really engaged on Pinterest, other than the fact it's my fantasy land, is the fact that it doesn't serve the goal. It's not serving the leadership that I'm doing. You know, probably the reason why Twitter is, well, I just think it's a bit of a, a bit of a mad place. And it's not that it's not wonderful. And it's not that it doesn't work, but for what I'm trying to build, it doesn't serve it as well in this moment. There are times it will again, I just have to, you know, I'm one human being with priorities.

And so I just have to let it serve. It kind of, it'll come back up again in a year or so, and then it'll go back down. But I think the idea of building this leadership coaching community was, I know, cause I know, cause I know that women leaders are isolated. I know that they're isolated and I know that it's problematic. I know that their experiences are problematic. I know that the pathways for their leadership and progress are problematic or non-existent. And so, and I have railed for years in the environments I was in saying, we've got to do something for the women. And people would either ignore it or they'd hypothesize saying, well, it'd be wonderful if men and women could just learn together.

And I'm like, if that was going to happen, it'd happen by now. And also you're not acknowledging the inequities that have made that impossible from time. And so it was a way to say, if developing women leaders in a specific way, isn't welcome at this table, how will I build my own? How will I build a table at the way you get to lay it? And I'm not even saying that those people should have, I mean, I, I think I'm saying I'm taking on the responsibility for what I feel called to. And, um, and, um, and so, and I've done different kinds of coaching women leaders via zoom for years. I want to say seven, eight years. I've been on zoom doing small groups and all that kind of stuff with leaders because the, the issues for women leaders is the lack of access.

Well, the digital world opens up a whole world of access. And so that's how it began. Well, it's been, it has been really helpful to me to be a part of that community and to benefit from the material that you put up there and the conversations that we're able to have and watching the other leaders that are a part of it, watching them make moves and, and grow and develop and process their own situations. So you have the leadership platform and you have your Instagram stuff, which your Instagram page in itself is a whole, like, we could talk about that for, you know, we could just keep talking about all the places you can find Joe everywhere and everywhere you go. It's good. The thing that I want to make sure that we talk about that makes this conversation, Hector and I were talking about how timely it is on Monday, I posted, I tweeted that the same critique people give online ministry or online church, you can use those same critiques for in-person ministry.

The big pushback when I was trying to have the conversation with people in the comments that I was running into is they would say, well, it's not, it's not embodied, that embodied problem. Unless you are physically next to a person, then you are not in community, you are not truly experiencing the spirit. And those things just by themselves are not what the Bible says. Yeah. Cause it's trash. It's privilege. And I, and don't get me wrong. I love that privilege. But what if you can't afford to be there? Right. Yeah. What if you can like, really, what if you can't afford to be there? Because you are taking care of a parent, you are taking care of kids. If what does it mean then? Yeah. The money comes in.

I mean, how's this going to work friends? And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yeah. And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yeah. And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yes. It's privilege. And don't get me wrong. I love that privilege. But what if you can't afford to be there? Right. Yeah. What if you can like, really, what if you can't afford to be there? Because you are taking care of a parent, you are taking care of kids. If what does it mean then? Yeah. The money comes in. I mean, how's this going to work friends? And it's not that I don't do. I love being in an embodied experience. Yes, I do. Would that be my dream come true every time?

Is it possible? For everybody all the time. No, it ain't. It just isn't. And so we can hypothesize about what all these things do and mean. Or we can acknowledge the reality of how people actually live. Yeah. And have to live. I was thinking of one of my really good friends who I have built a relationship with over six, seven years. And I've met her once. I've actually met her once. But it was through Twitter. It was through and then emails. And then Marco Polo. And it's how he's staying most of our contact. You know, the reason why I've been able to maintain relationships with my college friends who are thousands of miles away is because of social media, is because of the digital world. Now, are they stronger because they were embodied first?

Probably, yeah. But they are not the only close friends I have. And I think you're right. The critique you can have in person is the case. I think the critique works both in every context. I think it's just a good general critique. And I think if we can acknowledge these things serve different purposes. Yeah. And say, no, it may not do all of those things. But if it does 75% of them, isn't it still worth it? Yeah. If it does, if it gets you, if it moves the needle on someone's life and on someone's loneliness and someone's empowerment and their leadership, isn't it worth it? Or are we just going to stand there and say, well, the ideal is this? Yeah. And even the centurion came to Jesus and is like, I need you to heal my guy.

He's back at home. And Jesus is like, do you want me to go to him? And the centurion says, no, no, you don't need to go to him. You just need to say the word. I believe, like I tell people to do stuff and they do it. And I believe that you can tell him to be better and he will be better. And so Jesus asked, do you want me to go be in the physical space with this guy for this? And, and the centurion said, that doesn't have to happen for healing. And Jesus said, that's the kind of faith you need to have, you know, like if Jesus can say, this guy recognizes that I don't have to be in the same physical space for me to be in charge. Like, I want to be that kind of person. I mean, Mary and Martha came and said, if you were here, this wouldn't have happened.

But Jesus was still in control, even though Lazarus died. And what played out was for God's glory and their good, you know, so that the people could see Jesus as he is. It's funny, isn't it? That it is very easy for us. And, and I, and I, and I, one level, I get it. I get it that our desire is for people to have an experience because those things have been meaningful for us. You know what I mean? To have this physical connection when you can see, and, and we've been denied that for so long and it's been so painful. And because we have seen the underbelly of social media in, in various ways we have, and of digital ministry in various ways, we have seen the underbelly, but we also, but the other thing is, what are we going to then say that the idea is if we build it, they will come.

Do you know what I mean? If we have the building, the physical space, they will come because that isn't happening. I don't know if we've not been paying attention, but that isn't happening. And it hasn't, it hasn't stopped people being systemically racist. It hasn't got people being bigoted. It hasn't, there's a lot it hasn't done. And that's not to, I'm not saying therefore get rid of it all at all. I'm, I'm more than up for it. I'm just saying, let's do it all then. Because if, if we believe God is at work in the world, let's find where he is. Jesus said he only did what he saw the father doing. What's the father doing in social media? What's the father doing in digital platforms? What's the father doing?

I know what we prefer. I know what we want. And I'm, and I'm not saying, and I'm not ignoring that the father is doing something in our physical spaces, but what is the father doing amongst those who, who will not walk into a building? Because the last time they did, they were judged and abused. What is the father doing there? How will the father reach someone who will, who, who doesn't feel safe about, who just doesn't feel safe or for whom it's dangerous, dangerous because they are of another religion or another space. It's dangerous for them to enter a building. What's the father doing there? I think we just need a larger creative imagination. And when we ignore the beauty and the potential of a, of this complex space, our vision is too small.

Yep. Yes. Our vision is too small. It's not a problem with the platform. If you can't imagine it, it's not a limitation of the platform. If you can't imagine, it might be a limitation of your imagination. Yeah. And, and, and, and in that, of course, there's nuance, of course, there's nuance to contextualize about what is, but, but then let's do the contextualization. Let's explore the nuance. Let's recognize, say, okay, Twitter can do this much, but for the, this much it can do, we are going to fill it with all that we can. Knowing that it has so much it can do. Pinterest can do this much. I don't know what Pinterest can do because I'm not that kind of person, but, but for those who are all about it, they'll say, but this is what, this is what's possible.

Others will say, Facebook can do this. Instagram can do this. Yeah, but there's a lot that it can't, but for what it can, I'm going to give a percentage of my time, energy, finances, whatever, to doing what it can. Yeah. And letting it, and, and this is where different generations are living, inhabiting, all that kind of stuff. I'm not going to turn the light off and walk away and say, you need to come to a building. Yeah. I was going to say, I think, you know, even in, in the conversation, like we have to, we have to be willing to ask ourselves. And I think this is something that I've noticed is, are we arguing ideals? Like, are we arguing that this is the way I think it should be yet? It's not a current reality in my life.

And I think that for me has been a big thing of like, you can sit until you're blue in the face and argue with me all day about why in-person ministry is the, the option. But to me, if, if I can begin to point out, and I, I, I, I, I understand that we're not perfect. We're not going to do this perfectly, but if I can begin to, to point out the consistency of how it's not working, then we have a real problem because now you're arguing for something that like is not a reality in your life, in your leadership, in your community. And so all we are doing is, is having, we're wasting breath and time and energy so that we can talk about ideals and none of the work is being done. Yeah. You know? And so I, I think part of, that's a huge part of where I come from is, look, I will argue and I love in-person church.

I am a hugger. I am a, like, let's talk around a campfire. Like, let's hang out. Let's go find a new restaurant. I am for that. But if we're not doing those things, do not tell me that like the in-person relationships are the most important. Yeah. If showing up to a building between an hour and an hour and a half on a Sunday morning is more important, like we can argue that. But in person, like we have to play the arguments out. We have to play the positions out. That's fascinating what you said about the hour and a half as well, because when we think about it, so basically what we're saying is, if we limit it to that view, if we limit it to that, that the in-person is the ultimate way, then what are we doing with the rest?

What is humanity doing with the rest of the hours? They're at work. Are we there? Are we inhabiting there in person? Or are we just saying church building in person? Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes we say in person, but actually what we mean is the worship experience. Yes. And so it begins to unpack there. But we know, we may not want to admit it, but we know that people are spending way more than an hour and a half online. Yes. Oh. In a day. In a half a day. And so again, if we don't missionally, missionally, we have to consider, you know, what is shaping our minds, our expectations, our emotions, all these things. So whether we like it or not, the digital space is having a huge impact.

Huge impact. Ones that we fully don't know the consequences of yet and ones that we can already tell because everybody's given things up for Lent. Do you know what I mean? It's there. And the answer to that isn't just to make, isn't just to make the one and a half hours more compelling. Make the music better, the presentation better, this better, more dynamic. And why should God, the King of Kings, the God of the universe be limited? You know, the temple, the temple curtain's been torn down. Let God do his thing everywhere. And just be a willing participant in joining him in what he's doing in the world. And on one level, we're used to that if that means going to another country in some spaces or going to places where we physically assume that God won't be because there are terrible people there and all of that kind of stuff.

But we maybe need to allow him to show us what it means to see where the spirit of God can flow and move and transform and heal and rebuild relationships and all of these things through these very human tools. The other piece of pushback that people kept bringing to me on that tweet is that this is the definition of online church. And it boiled down to if it wasn't just one guy sitting alone with all of his senses knocked out, watching a YouTube video and not interacting at all with anybody. That is what they were calling online church. And that's not what we are calling online church. That's not what online ministry is. And if you would say, well, you know, they would say, well, you have to have people gathered with you.

And I would say, well, there are people who are watching online services in their home with their roommate, with their neighbor, with their family. Is that not a gathered body of believers? Do those gathered bodies of believers not count because they're not at this other location? Not to even get into that we're saying online church and you're saying online worship service. You're only looking at that hour, hour and a half. But it was as soon as you included any sort of mention that there might be bodies in the room or that those bodies might be involved, it was like, now you're not talking about online ministry or online church anymore. You are talking about a house church or you are talking about.

And so they had to reframe it and take it out. So the critique comes that if there is any physicality involved with online church, it is no longer online church. This is one of the critiques, which makes no sense because in in-person church, you use a microphone. You know, you probably have slides maybe. Like we might be live streaming, but we don't say because there are technological or digital means being used, this is no longer an in-person service. This is now a digital service. And so one of the things that, like, I hope people understand is that you can have in-person aspects to online ministry. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you watch TV with your family or your friends and you're all geared to watching whatever show of the day is really popular, are you, is that not building any kind of community?

And, yeah, I do wonder whether we are getting slightly pedantic. Do you know what I mean? I'm just like, there are salty sites which stream sermons in and on a regular basis where, you know, there are experiences where everybody's looking forward. And then when the, when everything, and they are observing the musicians at the top, at the, on the stage, and they may sing, they may not. They give them a round of applause at the end and then they up and leave. Is that, is that a community? Are we saying that's the community experience? Yeah. I just find it fascinating in terms of getting, I wonder if we get to, you know, we've had a lot of, we've had a lot of pressure. Maybe that's why we're getting obsessed with definitions.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I was going to say, I can't remember if it was to your tweets there, but someone did say that that same point of like, you know, people come in person, but they show up halfway through the song. And then they leave as soon as the band gets on stage. And so what community happened because they were there to yes, hear the word, but that's, that's not community. Yes. They were here to sing the songs, but that's not community. They participated in this thing, but that's not community. Like there is something about the, the knowing and being known piece that I feel like is, is part of the conversation of it's not just about showing up the same. And it goes all the way back to the tea time, right?

It's not just about that. You got, you showed up, but like, are you here? Are you participating? Are you engaged? Are you heard? Are you seen? Are you acknowledged? Like, does this change the way that you and I walk out of this gathering, this experience? And if, if it doesn't, and we aren't arguing about whether or not in person online is more of a community, we're arguing whether or not we had bodies in the thing that we put on. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's really good. Yeah. It's really good. And I think some of it, we may not see, you know, like the fruit of something, the impact of something. It takes time. Yeah. It takes time. We might, you know, five years from now, what we say, we might say these things serve just to hold us together for a while.

These things that gave us inroads into conversations we wouldn't have otherwise had. But, and as you were describing all of those things, Hector, and saying, you know, what's happening in the room, I just thought, and how many people are on their phones in the service anyway? Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I mean, how many of us just got to check something? And then before you know it, you've scrolled and you're like, I was checking something and now I'm here. Now I'm somewhere else. But, and I, and are we saying these things to make us feel better? Maybe we feel like something's happening if somebody's in the room. We feel like our church is, has certain numbers. And I cannot imagine the pressure leaders are under, leaders of churches are under, having to navigate half of their community physically coming back and the other half staying online.

And it's forcing these kind of, this thinking that they didn't, no one trained for this, no one trained for a global pandemic. Do I can understand why people would say, no, this guy, I know how to take care of you this way. I know how to serve you this way. I know how to bless you this way. I know how to be there for your family this way. This thing, I don't know how to do. I don't know how to do well. I don't know. I don't know if you're doing right. I don't know if this is any more meaningful than it was before. I don't know. And, and I don't know if I have the time, energy and resources. I just have the expectation that this thing has got to grow. And I don't even know what growth looks like.

All the metrics just got blown up, everybody. And if I could understand why there would be the pushback on this being as valid. I just want to say too, that Sarah and I are church leaders. We are on church staff. And so when we talk about, you know, we, we fall on the side of the online industry. We're pursuing it. We're exploring it. Yeah. We don't speak from a place of, you know, outside of church leadership, pointing at church leadership, saying you're doing it wrong. We point out from within saying there is a new place to go and lead. And if we're going to do the things that we say we want to do as church leadership, whether that's specific to our church context or the church in general, if we're going to go and make disciples of all nations, all gathered peoples, online is a gathered people.

And there is a multitude of nations on the online world. And so we're speaking from a place of, we want to live in the fullness of what we are claiming we want to be about. And it's not forsaking the things that we have been about, but it is saying if they will grow and if they will become truer expressions of what we believe, then we have to at least consider, seriously consider what's on the other side of that door. That's so good. I do want to hear a little bit about what you have coming up, Joe, because I believe that you can add in-person stuff to online ministry and it is just amplifying and deepening the impact of what you're doing. It's not, it's not tearing it down and you're like, well, that can no longer be a ministry that happens online.

Like my intention, and this is a good plan. This is a, this is a, around these parts, people would say, Lord willing and the crick don't rise. Um, my plan in a couple months is to be in the same room with Hector. Like let's, let's hope that everything pans out and that the, the airplane can get across the giant United States. It's a little, it makes me a little anxious to think about being in a plane for that long going that far. So, but it's a good plan and I plan to be in the same room with him and I plan after that to still be like, I'm a online partner with this person, even though we've met in person. Um, but I do think that getting the opportunity to meet him and be in the same space and have conversations with him is just going to amplify and deepen what we're doing.

And, and I know that there are people who have online communities right now who are looking at like, is there not a way that I can get in the same room with these people and, and pursue the conversations that we've been having. And I know there are people who feel like Twitter is their church. The people that they are doing life with those people and they want to get in the same space and have communion and worship together. And it might not be something that they can do all the time, but the, the concept that this is something that could happen that would push them deeper into community, into the conversation, pursue the passions and the growth that they've been growing together already. But that's something that is a desire on people's hearts.

And I know that that's something that you have coming up. Yes. Yes. And I started experimenting with this before the pandemic in terms of working out in this chapter of my life, I really feel committed to investing in women leaders, whether those women are all fueled by their faith or believers, but they might be leading in business. They might be in law enforcement. They might be in ministry in some way, just because the opportunities for their leadership development have been limited over the years. And I wanted to create a space where women could, women leaders could come and be unapologetically themselves. And so I started this thing called the Acer Collective a while back. I tried it a few times and then the pandemic kind of came and shut everything down.

And then the coaching platform became a version of, of the Acer Collective. And so in some ways I feel like I'm coming out of this era with rather than either or, but with both. And so the Acer Collective is, it gathers about 70, 70 women leaders, 70 to 80. It's intentionally small so that we can build relationships so that we can bring small groups so that we can have chance to network all of these things that we don't, we've in some ways been denied the opportunity to do for a while so that we can catalyze our leadership. That's the goal. The goal is how can we have a space where they can look at their leadership calling, get the tools that they need, the tools that are required, and then go back and make their contribution in whatever space they are working in.

And so the next ones we're doing are in the spring and they'll be in California on the West Coast. Up until this point, we've mainly done them in Minneapolis. We did one in Alaska as well, because that is far away. But in spring, in Southern California, in April, the 21st through the 23rd, in Sacramento, May the 9th through the 11th. Just a chance for women who are leaders to have a space and to not live the lonely task of leadership that it's so often been. Yeah. You know, so I, one, that sounds amazing. And I actually have a friend who was on staff with me and is now running her own nonprofit and she's considering it. And I just, I'm excited. I hope that she goes. I hope that she, if that's still open, but because a few things, I cannot tell you how many times I've been like, do we understand who we have on our team?

This woman who is leading and creating and breaking barriers in this neighborhood, do we understand? And there was something that I picked up from, I watched the 30 minute Instagram TV post of like, what, what will you invest? You know, like, what will you invest in the people around you or in your own leadership? And I think the, what I hear and what I love about this is that it is a come to a room and not only are you going to be able to hear, but you're going to be able to then also in real time respond and contribute. And it's going to change, not just how you walk away, but the people around you, because you were there and you made an impact and, and to just realize and recognize it. And obviously you have of like the potential that is there.

And then when you gather that many women at that caliber and just say it's, it's there and go and freely live in that and, and continue to impact one another to continue is I think not only, uh, an honorable thing, but, but just powerful, effective and needed in this time. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I love, I love the chance. Um, again, it's, it's a, it's a gift to be able to do it when we, when you can, but to, I, I, I've been asked from time to time, you know, why don't you have men and women working together? And I said, it's not, I don't believe in it. I just haven't, it's, I know that we didn't start in equal spaces. And so women have often had to edit themselves or felt the need to, even in places where they were more than welcome, the, the, the stories that began long before they were in that room.

And so there is something really powerful with looking around being in a space with leaders. And not having to apologize for who you are. I mean, that's true digitally or in person. There's something very powerful being in a community of other leaders and not having to shrink yourself and not having to hide yourself in some way. And I love that you said there about, do you know, do we know who we have in the room? I think sometimes those leaders don't know who they haven't, do you know what I mean? Because it's not been affirmed. It's not been articulated. It's not been celebrated. And I want to, I want to gather a group of leaders who have been tolerated and let them realize that they are celebrated and let them go from the place, knowing that they are set that their gifts, their contribution so that they can go.

And you know, the, it's, it's, it's a catalyzing time that I get them there to catalyze them so that, and so people have gone away with friends that they've made and, and who are, and they're from all around the country. So then from that point on, they'll be in touch with one another digitally, but they have friends who are now a brain trust for them. They've gone back and been able to negotiate for pay rises. They have gone into new jobs and new positions that they wouldn't have done because when you always feel like you're tolerable, you don't feel you have much to offer. When you feel like you are just above contempt, you're just above acceptance. You, you have so much to prove, but imagine if your leadership came from a place of having nothing to prove and nothing to defend.

You wouldn't spend all your emotional energy, just apologizing for existing. You would spend your emotional energy making the contribution you were designed to make. And that's what this is for. Wow. Yeah, I know we've got men and women listening and we have men who are in positions of leadership listening. And I, and I would hope not just that women would listen to this and that they would hear this is something that I should invest in for myself. This is something that's valuable. I saw the, I watched the promo yesterday and I just thought about how in the recent weeks she has just made big shifts and big growth. And I think about her involvement in the online community and also that she had the benefit of having that deeper time at the, at the last one and seeing how it has changed her and shaped her.

So it is, it's real that this helps women grow and step out and build themselves up. And so I would encourage a woman to go and invest that way. But I would also hope that if there, if, if there are men listening to this and they think, you know, who are the women in my church, in my area, in my life who need equipped, who need to know, like I have told them, I believe in them. Well, can I put my money where my mouth is? Can I get them to this? And can I get to support them tangibly? Absolutely. I think that's a really powerful way of looking at it as well. Because I think I was talking to a friend of mine, Albert Tate about this and saying, you know, he sent a number of his staff because he's like, this is what investment, it's an investment.

But this, let's say this is what the budget goes towards, some kind of experience for you. And there are many, many, many, many male leaders who are like, how do I advocate for these women? How do I, how do I come alongside them? And it is in the words that we share. It's in the encouragements that we give us and the opportunities we provide and the ways in which we invest. And so whether it's this or something else, find your way to catalyze the women leaders in your space. Come on. Yeah. I so appreciate this, this conversation. I, I think for me, I, the way my brain thinks is I start to find the different pieces that kind of, you know, I start to see the different Lego bricks. And we've had people like Heather Thompson Day on who have talked about just building your presence online and the way that we interact with one another and create space.

We've had people like Isaac Petit-Friere, the episode that dropped today. Uh, talking about showing up and like the simplicity of showing up, reading the word, sharing a couple of thoughts, and then inviting others into that and continuing to invite others to that and to see the hunger. I, I see, you know, and, um, uh, and now the one that initially came to mind, I can't grasp, but, but, but just the idea that like, there are an incredible amount of ways to, to consider what it means to, to see the investment, to see the return of the investment. And even as you were saying about Albert sitting, sending people just the, I think there was a threat in our conversation as well, that we may not see the return.

The kingdom will see the return. And when we are kingdom minded and we are kingdom first, when we are looking to like, what is the Lord doing? And as we join him in that work, then we may not see the return. And that's, that's biblical, right? That like some water, some grow and some, uh, reap the harvest and we may be pushing right fruit out the door towards the next thing where someone else is going to reap the benefits. And so I just, I see such a kingdom mindedness in this of gather the people, invest, equip, push out. And we may, the only return we may see is that we now know more strong leaders. We may not directly benefit from this, but the kingdom will and the network will. And so, um, yeah, yeah.

Joe, we ask pretty much everybody. There's been a couple that we've missed it, but we ask pretty much everybody the same two questions at the end. And I would just be interested to hear about a time that you were trying to minister to people on the internet and it failed. And what'd you learn from it? Let me think. I'm not thinking that it hasn't failed. I'm just trying to think about it. Or it went poorly. I mean, it went poorly is funny because I just think, I don't know that I ever tried them to be good. I, I mean, I think there are some, I mean, I can't, I can't think of one specific, but I think the times when they've gone poorly have either been to do with connection, like literal digital connection, like the quality of the connection and thinking, I remember that one of the first things we did when we started doing tea time is me and my husband are like, yeah, we're going to have to upgrade around here.

This is going to work for us. Cause he was working upstairs and working from home still is two years later. And so it was a basic infrastructure thing, um, that, that would needed to happen. And, but I think there was also the times when I think I failed is when I've not been prepared internally. Do you know what I mean? This is a spiritual work. Yeah. Even when I'm talking about eggnog, this is a spiritual work. So I think the other times of when it's felt hollow have been when I've not prepared myself spiritually for the work. You know, I prepare for talks when I'm, when I'm speaking on a stage, I pray, I sit down, I look at what I'm doing. Even if I'm hosting, I pray. And that I think the times when it's been poor have been when I'm just kind of tried to wing it.

There is a difference between being informal and being, and winging it. Yeah. I am informal when I, I was informal when I did take tea time for sure. I didn't even know what, I didn't always know what I was going to talk about, but was I emotionally spiritually prepared most of the time? Yeah. And so I think the times when I failed is when I didn't treat it like a ministry. Yeah. Love that. That's so good. Yeah. I think that, I think those, those are the times. And obviously there were times when you're rushed and you're kind of, you know, like things were happening in real time. And so then that wasn't necessarily like Joe sit down and have an hour prayer before. No, it was just when I came to the day, when I came to the Lord at the start of the day, and this was part of the day, was I making myself, was I inviting him to meet me?

Was I inviting God by spirit to empower me to do the things I couldn't do by myself? Was I asking the Lord for revelation from his word? Was I walking with him? Was I staying in close relationship with him? Was I, was I forgiving my enemies? Do you know what I mean? And all of these sorts of things? Was I walking with him? And I, I noted the times when it felt more hollow or a bit more threadbare. The connection might've been great by that point. Um, I may have remembered the makeup and all, and the lighting might've been great, but this is a work of the spirit still. It's a ministry of the spirit still. It's a mission because God is seeking humanity to invite them into relationship with him.

I just want to be ready. And so I want to show up spiritually as well. And I think the times when I failed was when I was just like, ah, well, you're right. No, it's good. Yeah. And so we, we don't, we, we love hearing kind of like the reality of this is that like, it's messy, but we also do want to celebrate, as you said, we want to celebrate the good. And so, um, can you just share a time or, or maybe in the same veins, just like when it, when it went really well, or when you saw God move or provide for a moment in your ministry online. I probably would say the coaching platform. I probably would say that because for me, the goal is always to see leaders stepping into their own. So when I hear of, I, I, I, I'm keenly aware, you know, I have spent most of my life, I have been in leadership in one form or another for nearly 30 years.

And most of that time has been physically with people because there wasn't an internet that we could use when I began, you know, and there. It wasn't, uh, and there weren't smartphones and all that kind of, and all that kind of jazz. And so I'm used to that for me being in doing things online is often me walking in weakness. It really, it really is walking in weakness. And the goal has always been to see other leaders rise up and do what they're called to do. So when, when we hear back from someone who listened to a podcast and said, you know, this is what I'm doing. I remember meeting somebody in England a few years ago and she just came up to me. She said, I just want to thank you for the podcast.

I'm, I'm a leader. I lead a church and it has been a lifeline. And I'm like, God, what are you doing that? God will be the kindness of God, the kindness of God, that there is this free resource that has been a lifeline to a leader is a really humbling thing that a blog post has, has given somebody hope that a, that a tweet or that something on Instagram, I, you know, yeah, there are, there are a few of them. Actually, let me, I'll say two, I'll narrow it down to two. Now I'm rambling the coaching community has been a powerful one because you get to do the arc of a journey with a community of people and you hear the stories and you read up on and women from around the world, you know, different continents.

We've got four or five continents at any given time gathering and on that space. And to think that's this woman in, in Australia, ministers to this woman in Canada, who ministers to this woman in Spain, who helps this woman in Jordan, who helps this woman in somewhere. I mean, it's mind blowing. It's just mind blowing that God would do that and that they are impairing one another and giving ideas and being a support for one another is just a privilege and a joy to be involved. So that would, that ongoing one, but in terms of the instance, I think some of the stuff on Instagram in the past year, I felt really challenged to just tell the stories of women leaders in the Bible and not a massive theological treatise or anything like just a bit of their story.

And I think what hit home about that one is the amount of people who've slid into the DMs and said, I didn't know these women existed. I didn't know these women existed. Some people asked if they were true and they said, you know, I would have seen myself differently. What was possible if I had known about her and people who would thank me. And, and although when I say successful or things that have gone really well, it's not been a neat bow on that, but it's opening up a world. It's opening up the word to people. It's opening up a sense of, Oh, so God said, Holder should do that. Or Shearer should do that. Well, maybe God can do something with me. And, um, that that's been a privilege to be involved.

And again, that he's just, God is moving. God is moving through these things and touching people in ways that I could have never planned for. So good. That's so good. I think the simplicity, you know, that as you're again talking about, it's, it's simple. The things that we have to do do not have to be drawn out, um, strategized. Like there's good to that obviously. And there's good to, to have these bigger things that they have a little bit more organization, but even the simplicity of, let me just stare, share the stories about women in the Bible and the impact that can have to put just a little bit in it to, to know the story and to tell the story and what that can do is, is incredible. I think that that really is the heart of what we're trying to do is we, we look at people who are doing the work of online ministry.

And so the exploration of that is that we just want to hear the story, tell the story, share the story. And then that's so hopeful to, to, to know that like, yeah, just the impact we, we might hear like me, you know, I'm really grateful that you were able to hear that. And, and to, to hear that, like, this has been a lifeline to, I just, uh, am so encouraged by the work that you're doing and getting to hear a little bit about the story and, uh, and just to, to have the privilege and the honor of hearing so much of just the heart behind it today, I think is incredible. And my hope is, is that, you know, I know that, that the gatherings are looking to be intensively small, but my hope is that, you know, as, as these gatherings, collectives continue to happen, that the, uh, the inspiration towards, as you said, whether it's at Aeser or whether it's, you know, another gathering, but that women and women leaders would not just be encouraged, but equipped to lead and to impact the world, physical, digital, and everywhere.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is, this is really, really, this has been an incredible conversation. It's, it's definitely, uh, I think one that we're going to have to just come back to even more to just unpack more. I'd love to hear stories from the collective as well. And so anyway, thank you so much for your time, Jo. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Sarah, do you have anything else? Nope. I just like to keep talking forever, but. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you can tell your people as well. Um, and you can add this in, in your, however you want to, if there are people who want to go to the Aeser collective, give them a code, like give them, I think podcast, get some money off cup of Joe gets some money off.

Um, yeah. So feel free. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Joe, uh, where, where can people find you if they're looking to, to just continue to learn from you and to be involved in the things you're involved in? Yes. Well, website is joesaxson.com. Um, that is a good landing pad. Um, but in terms of the socials, if you want to, um, Instagram and Facebook are probably the places I'm most active. So at Joe Saxton, though, we'll get you to Twitter. We'll get you to Instagram, Facebook. Those, those will be the things. LinkedIn is there as well. But, uh, in terms of most actively engaged at this moment, Instagram and Facebook probably are the ones. Great. Perfect. Thank you. Awesome. And is it okay to push people towards the, um, the coaching network?

Is that? Yes, please do. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. That'd be wonderful. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much, uh, for your time. And, uh, thanks to all who've listened to this conversation. What a rich conversation. Uh, you know, I think there are moments we've talked about Sarah and I on and offline of the conversations are so timely for what's happening in the world. Um, but then also knowing, like, I think one of the things that I've started to look forward to is editing and listening back and hearing how God is, is outside of time. Like, and we could go on and on about that and how that, that continues to, to think about digital, but, but just the way that the spirit uses these conversations just in our lives.

And, uh, and Joe, I, I am so thankful that you took the time with us. And I hope that if you're listening and this has impacted you, that you would not only share it, um, just for the sake of pocket pulpit, but, but to share with someone he needs to hear that one, they're seen, they're acknowledged and that you, you just believe in them. So anyway, thanks for listening to the pocket pulpit and we'll see you next week. Bye.