Gaming as Parable — Q&A

And I'm going to open up for some Q&A. I don't know if Leighton wants to pop back up in here or not, but I will be happy to answer some different questions. Yes, unless Jesus is the hero of the story and we become like him in spirit and truth. 100%. What would Jesus do at D&D? I love that. W-O-J-D-D-D.

That's excellent. That's excellent. Make sure my headphones are on. No, they are on. If you've got questions, go ahead and put those in the chat or if you're like, no, this will be easier if I just ask it. Raise your hand. I'll bring you up on stage and you can do that.

I really love the aspect there of passive and spectating versus intentionally engaging. What is the aspect that we should be thinking about when we do that? Because there are times, let's just switch to something else. Sports. Do I need to be engaging my mind in thinking about strategies in there? I mean, World Cup's going on right now. I'm like, if I watch a game, I'll watch a game, but I'm not a soccer fan.

I'm not going to watch this later on in life. So could I just go and passively do that? Because it's not what I love. So where's the level at which when we decide we need to, now I have to engage and pay attention and not just passively consume something? You know, I was thinking about that a little bit because I was realizing like today we have so many people who like to play Fortnite, they like to play shooters and competitive games and PvP and all those different things. I think then it becomes more about the people that you're playing with and are around and their stories and their experiences and why they're playing the way that they're playing and who they are when it comes to a competitive experience. I think that the same concepts apply there, but it is different.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I just was wondering that because it really resonated with the, and I'll just shift in this direction that growing up, I always paid attention to the words in songs and I would know the words to songs and most of my friends would not. And I would really challenge them around, why would you listen to that? Did you not listen to what they say? And I especially find this in pop. It's really stupid music. It doesn't have logical things.

It has fallacies in it all the time. And I just ruin music for people because I point those out, but I can't consume something that just like without engaging it on that level that I'm going to be doing it. But there's also a point where we can not actively think about it. Like, I'll just shift in another direction. I grew up watching Beavis and Butthead. And a lot of it was just passively enjoying it. And my wife would once in a while catch me saying phrases from that and going, I really don't think you want to be saying those things.

And I would just be like quoting it because it was there. So there's the level of, I was passively engaging there where other places I was intentionally not passively engaging. Unseen Bird asked a really great question. As a newly employed gaming missionary, at which games would you draw a line? I would draw the line at the games that you do not believe that you are supposed to play. I think that you can do this with all sorts of different types of games. But, you know, we have Christian liberty.

And some of us have the Spirit check us on certain things, whereas we don't on others. And I would just encourage you to not play things that the Spirit is checking you on and to play the things that you do. Don't play games you don't like. Don't play games that you feel like that you shouldn't that are going to tempt you to go down a wrong path. Like, don't don't do that. But whatever you want to do, do it. Yeah, I would just say exactly that.

It's where does the Spirit check you? Because it might check me in one genre of games, and it might check you in a different genre of games. But if we're trying to reach everybody in dark places, somebody might need to go into some of those games. I don't know if I would just say there's a hard fast. Nobody can go in there. Because I'll go to another example. And if you don't know it, XXX Church.

They go around to the porn conventions, and they witness to the people who are in the industry. I'm not called to go there. I'm not going to go there. But there are plenty of people who are, you know, they had a thing a while ago, they called it porn and pancakes, where you address this issue within the people sitting in your pews. I can go there and participate. But I can't go to the conventions and participate. So I think that's really a question of where you called is really the thing.

I know Lexi's in here as a speaker, but I want to grab Ruth Ellen's question. It's hard to stay engaged when the game becomes a routine. I have, I follow a lot of the, like the gaming, like gaming meta, if you will. Not meta the company, but just like how people are feeling about games. I'm on X, I'm pretty active on X, and there's a couple of different people out there who used to be like hardcore competitive gamers, and they play tons of Call of Duty every day, and they have pivoted hard as creators to playing games with stories and playing games with like a lot more depth to them on a regular basis. And again, nothing wrong with Call of Duty and Fortnite and all that, and they don't think there is either. But one of the things that they found was when they were just playing games that were routine, where you do the same thing over and over again, they said, well, gaming's dead.

Gaming's dying. Gaming is boring. Why are we still playing games? But as soon as they started engaging in story, and we were designed, we were created to engage with story. As soon as they started engaging with story, their entire way of thinking about video games began to change. Like, oh man, I've never played a game like this before. This is way better.

And that's absolutely true. Yeah. A hundred percent. Lexi, you're up here. Go ahead and ask your question. Yeah. It's kind of articulated in a text, really.

So hence why I asked to speak it. So culture has been, as usual, I've been studying Revelation and teaching Revelation in my small group church fairly recently. And one thing that really stood out to me between the churches who were being persecuted for their faith in Jesus and things was how Jesus was using cultural references in the different churches every single time to provide messages of both encouragement and warning, but also encouragement to still remain faithful to Jesus who won the victory, which I found quite fascinating. On top of that, I recently, I like my horror games and I enjoy them. It's my culture. It's my past along with like the heavy metal and stuff like that. And I'm also getting involved in some youth ministry, particularly with special education needs.

So things like children who are watching, I don't know, Skibbity Toilet and Twitch channels and Minecraft and all these other sort of things. I really want to jump at one point unrelated to the children's minister that had the horror movies Scream and in this context, horror games in this instance. But let's just take the Scream one example. A church member said that it was very, very, they found it very, very offensive that I was wearing that in the first place and potentially had that wearing around children as well. So when it comes to games like Baldur's Gate, that very often use gods based on the gods of the Bible, of the Greek pantheons and so on and so forth, but altered, where it's just a bit of fun, a bit of culture as far as I'm concerned, but in comparison to the impact that it has on others. How would you balance the needs between the needs of your church communities, but also using those culture, in this case, gaming communities to be able to still bring a message, but still be set apart, even if you're still in that culture? Does that make sense?

Yeah. I recently was speaking at the local physical church that we're involved with. I spoke there in April and I talked a lot about some of the nerdy things that I thought that they could all relate to or that that audience might know a little bit more. So, for example, we talked about, I use the Lord of the Rings multiple times as a reference point, Star Wars multiple times as a reference point. Whereas when I, when I started learning to speak and teach, I never would have been able to do that ever. Knowing your audience is really, really important. Like all the rules about who is my audience?

What are they going to appreciate? It is really, really important. But then like, for the example, the challenge that I gave about, hey, let's use this boulders gate example. You don't necessarily have to frame it around a video game, but you could tell the story. You could tell the story about this, this druid, and this is where storytelling, I think, and preaching is, and teaching is, needs to come back in a bigger way. You could reframe that entire thing as a story, never mentioned a game, but you could mention the character's name as you want and use it and tell it that way and use that kind of illustration that people who are in fantasy, who love fantasy can relate to. Absolutely.

I think that that's something that you could do, but you got to know your audience. All of that still completely applies. I, even though I'm not a sports guy, I'm around students that are, I have to use some of those analogies sometimes because that's what's going to relate to them. You know, I'm, but I'm also learning that most of my students, they also really like anime. And so I'm able to throw in a Naruto reference or a One Piece, that's what's really popular, reference now and again. I also want to, I want to throw out one of the things you said about horror in particular. I personally am not a big fan of horror because gore really bothers me.

Like, like extreme gore that's often in horror and horror games. And Unseen Bird talked about things that really bothered him. That's for me a line. But I have, I have many Christian brothers and sisters like, I love horror. There's so much to the Bible. There's like the horror that's in the Bible, so much I can learn from these games. I want to reach that community.

Absolutely go after it. Right. And it's for the people in your church that are being, oh, you're wearing a Metallica t-shirt or whatever. You know, I don't know. It's, it's really, really important. It's, it's really, really important to, I think, be yourself. Be yourself.

Well, along with that, there is the, the passage that talks about not being a stumbling block for others. So there is the evaluating. If I know that something might be a stumbling block to others, do I choose to use it or not? So let's just say I'm, I'm going to be doing it. I'm actually preaching on Sunday. And I know that the average person in that church is over the age of 50. Do I go and I talk about things that are, they're not going to necessarily approve of?

No, that, that would not make sense to bring in a horror as an illustration for that audience. So I would not bring that in. So sometimes knowing, is this going to be a stumbling block? Yeah. Wearing the t-shirt to a church that's going to be anti that, it just becomes a stumbling block, either not necessarily in their faith, but in relationship. So it can be a stumbling block in relationship. They might see it as a stumbling block for you because you're wearing it and they're judging you for it.

But it really might be more of a stumbling block in their faith of understanding that you need to reach out to people. So there's a whole bunch of nuance there. So when you're, so when you're saying, no, the audience, I think that really sums it up and it might be the other person is weaker. So I don't wear it. Well, I'll give a different example that I do all the time. Like I'm wearing a hat. I know in certain settings, if I'm praying with the hat on, there are people that are going to be thinking, I cannot do this.

This is awful. And you know, that prayer is not reaching God. Frankly, you just have never actually read the Old Testament and seen the liturgical garb because the high priest is wearing a turban. Okay. So the high priest, the one who is going into the Holy of Holies has a hat on when he goes into that space. But if I'm in a sanctuary and worship is happening, I will not have a hat on. So let's, let's, I'll do a follow up question, which are, these are really good.

And there are points that were made to me of which I do actually agree with. And in fact, it may be God teaching me those lessons about context and audience and yet still being myself from, as a video gamer. But let's look at a ton of it on its focus on that in terms of like horror, because the scriptures themselves is, is full of horror stories. David literally goes in on Goliath and cuts their head off and then brings it to Solomon. There are rapes, there are mutilations, there are genocides, there are wars and battles in the name of God. And if they lose, it's probably because they did something sinful way. They're bloody and they're brutal.

And so contextually speaking and relevant, there's loads of things that can be brought out and some of which are also used in video games that can be, or also just as bloody and brutal. So contextually speaking, how do you tell those stories in those ways where, with, with, with that in mind, within, like, with that in mind? Don't know where I was going with that, but there you go. So let me, let me engage with you a little bit here. Are you asking, how do I tell the more grotesque and gruesome and difficult stories from scripture? Is that, is that what you're asking? Yeah.

And still be part of the gaming culture that play video games, like, like what, like, like Call of Duty and Fortnite. Because Fortnite is still killing someone in some context. If you take it to an extreme, you are still being something that's in the world rather than of it. So it can, in some ways, it depends on your, your theological perspective, really. Yeah, there's, there's so much to that. I think, I think in particular, having a clear understanding yourself, which I believe that you do, of what is right and what is wrong, what, what honors God and what, what would dishonor God. Clearly in your messages saying, Hey, this is not okay.

Right. I don't know that I would stand up and use a horror game example in a sermon. However, I'm in this particular, particular story that I told, I, I was telling them about how I, I really just, I love to play Call of Duty zombies. That's like one of my favorite, like a little more mindless if I do just like, but I'm always playing with friends. And so like, I did use that as an example, but again, that was with 18 to 22 year olds, not 50 year olds, not 40 year olds. I was with 18 to 22 year old students. So I was understanding my audience.

I knew that if I used a, Hey, I love to play games where you fight and kill zombies, that they would understand and relate to that a little bit more than that. And yes, I absolutely agree with Nerd Pace and Nate. I think you have to find that audience, not force the concept on an existing audience, especially if you're a guest in that context, a hundred percent true. So much of this is, is nuance. Some of it is more cultural. There's a lot of great comments in the chat, but yeah, I, I would strongly encourage you to know if you're a guest in some context, be yourself. Like I said, but you've really got to know that audience.

I know that if I go to a little bit more of a conservative church, I, I might use some fantasy storytelling elements as an example. I often do that, but a lot of people will be okay with me saying the night slays the dragon. They're not going to really, even if they're super conservative, 80 year old going to really blink at that. I know that they're going to probably be able to relate to it at some level. Um, but there are some things I just, I just wouldn't. So context is really, really important. And, you know, again, it just depends on who you're talking to, but there are just some things I wouldn't do in a broad context.

Last question, then I'll step out, um, which is in that, in light of that and knowing your audience, which I agree, I think that's part about having the wisdom of God in light of that, knowing that there's a huge narrative, uh, especially in the epistles about being set apart and being holy from the culture, um, that you're in. Um, but going into those audience, God clearly uses some of your culture, previous culture and your gifts as well. Sometimes, um, in that, how do you engage in these games and use your mind, but still be set apart, um, at the same time and remain spiritual? And that's my final question, and I'm going to dip out. That's a great question. I think it's two things. One, everything I talked about, engaging with a biblical worldview, understanding fully what the Bible has to say about different topics.

Um, the Bible does say one thing I think is really, really important for us to, to emphasize, particularly when we talk about narrative based games are often rated M for mature or 18 plus is that we are to flee from sexual temptation. I think that's important for us as Christians to emphasize. So for example, when I play Baldur's Gate three, I've got the nudity filters on. I don't see any of that. I know when the smoochy scenes are going to start typically, and I just skip them. I choose to skip them. And if I'm doing that on stream, I say, why is like, I don't need to see that.

It's not something the Bible says that I should flee from that sort of stuff. And so I, I just don't look at it. I play a lot of Japanese role-playing games and there is just all sorts of, you know, harem, anime, sauna, scene type stuff. I skip it. I skip it. I skip it. Right.

Because I know that the Bible says without a doubt to flee from sexual temptation. So I just skip that stuff on purpose. I can tell where it is, hit start, skip, or whatever button it is on your controller. That's the only place in scripture where Bible says to flee. And so I look at other things like violence and that's where the spirit is, is checking me like, man, I don't mind necessarily a headshot on a guy in call of duty, but I can't play games where you're just like tearing another person apart. It just, it just checks my spirit. So I think a lot of it is, is letting people see your faith to be demonstrated.

It's like, Hey, the Holy Spirit's talking to me about this. This is something that I know I shouldn't engage you. So we're going to skip this part. We're not going to do this part. I think that that's, that's really, really important. Any other questions? I did want to go back to one, one piece that you talked about.

Um, fear, uh, protects, it does not solve things. And I just thought that was really, really a good piece to, to think about that. And this relates to, to some of those things where, why do Christians attack video games? Why do they attack horror? Why do they do, because there's fear. And so they're not addressing it. They're operating out of fear.

So, so that's why, why they're sometimes attacking sometimes why you can't bring it up. So I, you can't wear it because they're operating out of a sense of fear rather than actually, you know, engaging the person, uh, that's there. They're just operating from fear. So I, I just thought that was a relatable thing that applies to anyone that's doing gaming stuff. When people just won't listen to you, they're probably operating out of fear and they don't want to engage and want to find the person behind it, uh, who's doing the different ministry. That's doing it. You know, for sure.

I see a few things coming in. Yeah, absolutely. We're, we're, I have a friend, his name, his name is JT and JT is a Christian man, loves the Lord. No doubt about it. He loves horror games and he plays them all the time. He's very good at them. He loves resident evil, all the different things.

I am not that guy, but he is. And he feels called to reach the horror community. I do not. And so I just, I just don't. Right. I, I rarely play anything that, that is that horrific. Um, should there be a Christian feature extension pop-up to alert gamers whenever they come across things that could have a negative influence on them?

Well, I mean, I suppose if you wanted to develop something, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but I think it's important. It'd be just better to have a good dialogue about, about certain things. Um, better to, cause we can't pop up everything. Like, I don't know what's going to bother you. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, it would just, it would just always be on exactly.

But I think that's where the dialogue comes in. And that's where, if you're in the chat, you say, Hey, I'm not really into that. And, and, and to have a good conversation about it. Right. Cause something's always going to be, um, something's always going to be bothering somebody. Well, in, in some games like Baldur's Gate does have different levels that you can set things on. Like you were talking about no nudity.

Absolutely. You can also set the gore level at different things in different games. So you can dial some of these in different directions to be more accommodating to the way that you want the game to be played and the, and the visuals that you want. So maybe that's the place that it's in there. And maybe there's more that could be like, there's some games where that, you know, profanity makes sense in the genre of what it is and all of that. But frankly, at times I just get tired of it. I would love at times to be able to turn profanity off and not, Oh, like I'm playing, uh, um, clear obscure expedition 33.

And so most of it is just going along and all of a sudden, oops, somebody drops an F bomb. And I'm like, Oh, well, sorry. Like, I wish I could turn that off. I wasn't expecting it. Sorry, everybody who's watching me play it. You're not expecting it. And all of a sudden there's an F bomb that just gets dropped in the middle of dialogue.

And it's like, I wish I could just click that off. Uh, it doesn't bother me so much. I just feel bad for the people who are watching, not expecting it. So, well, yeah. And I think that's where using the appropriate, um, tags and filters, particularly on Twitch and things like that is crucial. I think they should probably know, Hey, this game is rated M for mature and da da da da. And Twitch does have, some of them are just automatic.

You can't turn it off. Yeah. You know, if you're playing this game, this is odd, right? Yeah. So I do appreciate that they don't let you circle around it. Even if I'm doing Baldur's gate and I have nudity off, it's still mature regardless. Yeah.

Yeah. Filters are great. And I, again, we, there are some hard lines. Scripture draws hard lines in many, many places, but then we also have Christian Liberty where there's certain things just don't bother certain people. And, and this is where the equipping thing, I love what Nate said, um, this is where equipping comes in and having that conversation about, Hey, like, why don't I do this? Why don't I play this game? Why don't I do this sort of thing?

You know, I think that that's important. Um, yeah. Whether or not it's family friendly, whether it's T for teen and for mature. Exactly. All right. Any other, any other questions before we wrap up? One last question, if you want to, everyone else, uh, you know, just, uh, you know, give your, uh, emojis in the chat to thank Dr.

Lovellup. I appreciated that so much. I'm going to go back definitely and, uh, re-listen to some of the depth in there. That was just really good. Like, like I have a whole sticky note full of all of, all of my little things from there. Like that's, that's a lot for me. Um, I would sit in class and have three words written on a piece of paper when I got done listening to class.

So I'm just showing you, I'm taking notes here. So yeah, real quick though. I do want to shout out my other, my other co-leader. Um, um, he has a really cool book called Jesus Loves You Nerds. I had this on my shelf from NCMS. I'm going to put a link to, um, Checkpoint Church and my YouTube channel as well. They have a lot of great stuff on there.

Um, he talks about anime and video games where I did not, or anime and movies where I did not talk as much about anime and movie and TVs. So if you're looking to see this from a biblical worldview, um, for TV shows and anime and movies, check out what Nerd Pastor Nate is doing over there. He's going to give you some great perspective. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

I'm going to jump out of here. Thank you so much. I'll be in the chat. All right.