4 Areas That Will Help You Grow As A Leader

[Tom Pounder] Today we're going to talk about four keys to help you grow in your leadership. Are you ready? Because it's time. [Announcer/Intro Voice] You're listening to the Church Digital Sidekick Podcast, part of the TCD Podcast Network. [Tom Pounder] Hey heroes, my name is Tom Pounder and this is the Church Digital Sidekick Podcast. This is the podcast where I bring on ministry leaders and we talk about how you can do ministry more effectively in this very digital and online world. And today I'm excited to have my friend Christopher Wesley back. Christopher and I have known each other for a really long time and he's been doing a lot of leadership. development, leadership, formation stuff with what he's doing in his life, but also what he's doing to help other people. And so today I brought him on to talk about four keys that he really focuses on to help you grow as a leader. Four different keys, four different areas that you can focus on. And I found that really, really helpful. So I think you'll find it helpful as well. But before we get into the interview, I do want to highlight the church.digital. ministry and all digital ministry. We are your online hub where you can get all the great tips, tools, and resources to help you grow in your online ministry, no matter what kind of online ministry you're talking about. Again, whether it's metaverse or whether it's just strictly online or digital in some ways. We've got blogs, we've got podcasts, we've got resources, we've got coaching, we've got cohorts, we've got it all. So check out thechurch.digital, especially if you've never checked it out today. I know you're going to be blessed because of it. all right so you ready to get in the interview with christopher wesley i am too let's get in the interview right now all right with me right now is christopher wesley my friend my baltimore friend christopher wesley um it's it's been a minute it's good to see you my friend or or talk to you at least uh yeah so uh yeah i've been good i've been good it's been it's been a little bit of time it seems like every time we catch up and podcast a little bit we're in different stages of the sports scenes you know and so now you've got your yankees struggling to get into the playoffs right now although they've been playing better excuse me my yankees aren't struggling if we're talking about teams who are struggling how about your cowboys that's all i gotta say so you know yeah [Christopher Wesley] Yeah. All I got to say is I can't wait till next week when the G-men play your Cowboys. [Tom Pounder] And yeah, it's going to be a disaster. I've already given up on the Cowboys. It's only after week one that I've given up on the Cowboys because they look bad even when Dak Prescott was playing. So I was like, we're not going to be good. [Christopher Wesley] Fair enough. Fair enough. But yeah. [Tom Pounder] Well, Chris, you've been on my podcast number of times, numerous times, too many times to count. But just in case somebody doesn't know who you are and haven't heard you on the podcast before, share with them who you are and what you do. [Christopher Wesley] Sure. My name is Christopher Wesley, and I am founder of an organization called Marathon Youth Ministry. And our pure focus is to help ministry leaders rediscover their joy. And we do that through coaching, through cohorts and content, a variety of different content. mainly the blog. And yeah, I just been doing that for almost six years now. In addition to that, I work in a local church. You know, something that has changed, even if people are familiar with me is now I oversee children's youth and adult formation in in the Catholic Church that I'm a part of, or as I like to say, diaper to diaper ministry. So [Tom Pounder] Wow, that's a great way to phrase it, Chris. [Christopher Wesley] It sounds better than cradle to grave. I mean, cradle to grave sounds a little bit more morbid with the grave part. So I just figured diaper to diaper, you know? [Tom Pounder] Yeah, that's good. Okay, now I've got just a whole different thought in my head. Maybe we should talk about that today. [Christopher Wesley] Well, that's what happens when youth ministers take over children's and adult ministry, right? They bring it with them. So, yeah. [Tom Pounder] well i mean let's talk about that for a quick second yeah usually take over like they'll do family ministry type of thing although growing into something different or as in the case recently in the past few years youth minister has also been in charge of online ministry but what got you into the full aspect of diaper to diaper let's just say [Christopher Wesley] Yeah, so we're gonna have a lot of fun with that. But yeah, so basically, like a lot of churches, we had a huge amount of turnover in staff. And I don't know about other churches, but we really did struggle to fill positions. And it brought us to a certain point where we really had to restructure what we were doing. And instead of trying to find the traditional youth minister and children's minister and we looked at okay what happens if i oversee all of formation all of our discipleship so from kids adults and and uh kids to adults and um we have a woman named catherine who's on staff and she's in charge of our adult discipleship um information and then uh you know we had a couple of other part-time staff here But instead, what we look to do is we hired someone who would help us with sacramental prep, you know, because we're a Catholic church. And then we hired someone who her main role is to help us with onboarding, recruiting and training our volunteers. And so in my position, it's technically director of formation ministries. And what I've mainly been doing is working with our church members to run the ministry for youth, for children's, almost like at a volunteer level. But now I have the centralized staff that helps with the development of those volunteers, the formation of those volunteers. [Tom Pounder] Yeah. So in a sense, they're not siloed anymore. You've got them all under wraps and you're really working to bring a unity there. [Christopher Wesley] yeah yeah and so it's going a little bit beyond just the family ministry aspect right it really is talking about okay we're not just talking about parents when we talk about adults we're talking about adults um single adults um empty nesters widows widowers you know uh divorces whatever it might be and so it really helps us to sort of develop that discipleship pipeline right what is it that we want everyone to know and what is it that we want them to do and um And then what we've done is kind of then broken up even our children's and youth ministry into like three to four year stages. So, you know, we have everything before pre-K. Then we have the pre-K kind of years, you know, almost like a two to four year olds. And then we have K through second, third through fifth, middle school, high school is a four year, college is a four year. And then even in the adulthood, kind of looking at you know, depending on, you know, single, married and everything like that, but breaking it down into stages, but how does it all fit together in one pipeline? [Tom Pounder] Yeah. Wow. That's awesome. That's great. Well, listen, I'm excited for you. I'm excited that this kind of a great opportunity for you. And it kind of shows that, you know, and again, this is what I see from your blog because I am a reader of your blog. It's great stuff. And I love following you along with things. but again it's you've become quite a leader you've brought in yourself out with in your leadership skills you weren't just a youth minister you were just a youth minister at one point but then you continue to invest in yourself and grow as a leader and then now you're overseeing all this at your church and i think that's awesome which leads us into what we're going to talk about today leadership formation uh you definitely You have a ton of great content, and we're going to talk about that later. But Marathon Youth Ministry is your stuff. But you don't just write about youth ministry stuff. You've got a lot of great leadership stuff on there that covers no matter what ministry you're in. So let's talk about leadership formation. Let's just start over. Why are you passionate about it? [Christopher Wesley] Well, you know, honestly, it's all tied to some of the recent changes that I've gone through because I have no problem with people who are career youth ministers or things along those lines. In fact, I think like in a way, You know, to maintain that over the years is going to take some kind of reinventing yourself, changing things along those lines. Right. But also at the same time, maybe you're God's calling you into something different, whether it's moving from youth ministry to another ministry or maybe in my situation. Right. Taking on more responsibility and going up into a leadership role. Regardless, I think one of the most important aspects to staying in ministry for the long haul is your formation. Now, when I talk about formation, some people might call it discipleship. But really, I think it's a little bit more than just discipleship. And so let me explain that. uh when i'm talking about formation and in the catholic church especially with uh seminary and training they believe in these four pillars of formation and there's a document called co-workers in the vineyard that discusses this and those four pillar uh pillars are spiritual so spiritual formation meaning like kind of like your discipleship um your prayer life reading scripture retreats things like that you know so how are you investing in your personal relationship with jesus christ and and with god then there's the um intellectual formation right and that's kind of like uh going back and getting um a degree uh whether it's your mdiv or um you know uh taking courses to learn more about the theology of uh your your church and and your faith uh there's the pastoral um formation and that's more like the uh how do you if you're a youth minister how do you talk with teens like um you know what's what's creating a sustainable structures things along those lines um and then there's the human formation and that's something that we at Marathon actually specialize in and that's like the how do we how do we treat one another with the love of Jesus Christ so conflict management communication skills management skills things along those lines And so, you know, if you're engaging in formation in those four areas, that's really going to help you be the ministry leader or not just the ministry leader, but the leader that God is calling you to be. And so not only are we investing in that through Marathon Youth Ministry, but I'm investing in that personally because, you know, hey, that's what's helped me adapt and grow through everything that's been thrown at us these last couple years. [Tom Pounder] Yeah, I love how you broke that down into those four different levels. And I think honestly, when I look at leadership development and leadership formation, I do think a lot of us, we focus on the first two, you know, and we don't focus on the pastoral or the human factor as much. i i do think and this is just my own personal opinion i don't have stats to back this up but this is what i'm seeing is that we have fewer pastors lately or pastoral people and we have more leaders we don't have as many pastors i think investing in that pastorally is a really important aspect that you can focus on and grow how do you talk to whoever you're talking to how can you empathize with someone how can you kind of really effectively communicate And then I love about the human factor. So let's talk about those last two a little bit more. Talk a little bit more about each of those. [Christopher Wesley] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. First, I think it's important that we're always recognizing that we're in need of all four areas of formation, but that God's going to call us into heavier, like, like focuses on on those. And so just a quick example, I just got done with grad school. So I'm all intellectually formed out right in that regards. But yeah, for pastoral. um that that's like the skill of how do you become a better you know youth minister children's minister um you know even if you're a business manager or you know in maintenance or av whatever your role might be on the church staff right so um how are you doing that so a couple ways that you can um uh grow in that area is obviously books and podcasts you know such as this and um you know engaging in those areas but also um connecting in networks with other like-minded or people you know peer groups um whether it's a cohort or whether it's just a local network of hey here are the other youth ministers here are the other children's ministers in my area I'm just going to connect with them and be that iron that sharpens iron, you know, Facebook groups, things along those lines, going to conferences, obviously. So I feel like there's a lot that we do know of that is available to us in church world. Human formation, I think is a little bit tougher, but yeah. [Tom Pounder] Let me interrupt you real quick. I think you're right on that because again, part of the reason why I started Digital Bootcamp Facebook group is because I wanted to bring people together so we could learn together. And I think there's real value in being a part of that. And again, as I've transitioned from student ministry into more of online ministry and digital ministry, My peer groups have shifted a little bit. There's still some groups that I've connected with and whatnot, and they're good to bounce ideas off of. But in reality is I have a different peer group now and I got to grow in that area. So being associated with a cohort like you talked about and what you guys offer at Marathon Youth Ministry, but also being a part of Facebook groups or listening to the blogs, those are great ways to to grow pastorally. [Christopher Wesley] Well, and I think a lot of us experienced that right during the pandemic. You know, I remember I was like, thank God I knew Tom, because with the digital ministry, which I helped out with at our church, it was kind of like now I have to go from talking to a bunch of youth ministers to finding men and women who have this expertise. And so. knowing people in the field. And here's another just form of formation and just picking up the phone and be like, hey, Tom, how did you set up your, you know, your live stream or, you know, how did you, you know, configure the cameras or, you know, whatever it might be? And so as much as YouTube and Google can help us figure some stuff out, having the human element in that pastoral formation in any of the four pillars really helps us combat that isolation that we're going to feel. Because I know, you know, I've talked about this before. We've been in those scenarios or the situations where it feels so overwhelming and having that human person there to accompany us and help us grow is so key but yeah easy ways read some blogs buy a book you know listen to some podcasts a little bit more time but definitely worth it is getting into some kind of cohort or networking group [Tom Pounder] yeah again you and i have been a part of different cohorts and networking groups and i don't think either one of us would say man that was a waste of time oh never never yeah yeah right especially if you're leading it man especially oh man stop it stop it yeah yeah okay um let's get into the other one [Christopher Wesley] yeah and um it's funny because i usually do brush through the other three pillars because as i said uh human formation is our bread and butter at marathon um and you know i don't know about you tom but i've met too many people who have left ministry because of some kind of human element that could have easily been resolved right whether it was a hurt feeling whether it was miscommunication uh whether it was just poor management skills of their own time um just kind of burning out on that and having suffered my own burnout um you know, it was definitely something where I was like, all right, how do I improve in this? And so, I mean, I think I could give you a whole podcast series on human formation, but here are a couple of like elements that I think are important. I mean, one again, there are workshops, there are books, there are podcasts out there, anything from like Dr. Brené Brown to Simon Sinek, Patrick Lencioni sort of thing. There's a lot of great content out there on human formation and even stuff from the church to like, Let's not forget about sacred scripture in the Bible. There's plenty on there. Just a Sermon on the Mount, let alone. There's a lot in there already. But I think in addition to reading and listening to podcasts, there's a couple of other things that I think that are important. I think one, belonging to a network or cohort definitely helps with that. Going to some workshops. There isn't a lot out there in church world, but I know having a wife and human resources She's pointed me to a couple of different resources out there. Years ago, I used to go to this thing called Fred Pryor seminars where I'd be the only ministry leader there. Everyone else would be in like medical field or small business. And it's like how to manage a staff, right? Even if you're only managing volunteers, you need to take one of these courses because we all face like firing a volunteer, reassigning them and stuff like that. It's applicable whether you pay them or not. um the other part of it too is looking at your schedule right your time management are you uh are you just going off of your phone or do you have like uh you know, a journal or a planner that helps you manage your time. I think another thing, and this might be a little bit hard for people to talk about, but I'm pretty open about it is, you know, therapy. Therapy is huge in that regards. You know, I'm in therapy and whether it's the church that drove me there or just family or whatever, it all depends on the week. But, you know, I think having whether it's a therapist, a counselor, you know, a mentor, a coach. someone you can go to to kind of hash out the things going on in your mind and your heart are key. And I think that's in addition to like a spiritual director or a spiritual accountability partner. I think those are two separate things and we can't confuse those. um and to rely on one person to do both would be very very difficult so nothing against spiritual counselors or anything like that i think that's a whole different need um but i think it's really important for us to focus on these things because you know um a lot of the stuff that we're dealing with whether it's the diversity and inclusion, racism, women's rights, things along those lines, just bad behavior that's happening in church world as well as out is because we haven't taken the time to become better humans. [Tom Pounder] listen you're right on and again i think you and i've talked about this before but again i've been in therapy i go back to a counselor occasionally when i need to really debrief something really process something and again someone who who has no association with my church whatsoever this is someone completely different because i need to be able to be safe in what i share and know know that someone's giving me really honest feedback and encouragement on it And so I'm right there. And again, I think I hope we're past the stage of you're feeling embarrassed to go to therapy because I like to encourage that to tell everybody. And it shouldn't be me. I'm a pastoral person. I can listen to you. I can encourage you. I can support you. But I am not a counselor who knows how the human body works and all this stuff. There's only so much I can encourage you with. It really should be someone outside of that. [Christopher Wesley] I agree a hundred percent. And you know, the only reason that I know I bring that up cautiously is you, you see some of the professional athletes in the last couple of years, like whether it's Simone Biles or, um, you know, uh, just people coming out saying that they have these demo and the stigma that's still there. It's, it's, it's a little sad that that's still there, but. yeah i think the more that we can invest in ourselves right and i i forget if it was andy stanley i'm sure he said but a bunch of people said if we're gonna pour into other people's cups we're gonna have to make sure that we're allowing god and others to pour into our cup right we can't lead on empty and as cliche as that might sound it's something that can never be overstated yeah um so yeah i i would definitely stress that for for anyone who's listening to this yeah [Tom Pounder] That's great. Well, this is awesome. And how else would you encourage people as they're looking to invest in themselves and grow as a leader? What else would you encourage them with? [Christopher Wesley] Yeah. So just to jump to some of the other formation aspects, you know, spiritual formation, like it is something we focus a lot on, but I feel like sometimes we focus a lot on other people. If you're a youth minister or a marriage ministry or family ministry, Just because you're leading a retreat doesn't mean you're going on retreat. So we've got to find retreats for ourselves. I think that's important. Spiritual directors as well. Not being afraid once in a while to go to another church to worship, just to get a little bit of that break and recognize like, oh yeah, I don't have to worry about so-and-so's parents or Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so tapping me on the shoulder to ask me about what that was that our pastor just said or did. I think that's important. Um, and yeah, as someone who just got out of grad school and listen, I'm not looking back, going back to school for another 20 years, but I would say, um, you know, don't be afraid to pursue some higher learning. Um, even if it's not in, um, theology, but just a chance to really test and push yourself because again, that's a episode for another time, but, uh, just a lot that's been learned in, in the last two years. [Tom Pounder] Well, and true to the fact that hopefully your church has some money set aside that you can do some continuing education so you can invest in yourself. Again, it's not always the case. I know there's some smaller churches out there or whatever size church that they don't invest that much. But again, go... go to your church and ask them to take a class. I know I took some mastery level classes. I never finished it, but I really benefited so much from learning more when I took those classes. And it was continuing education. And again, a lot of other organizations do this. Teachers are investing in continuing education. Other businesses are taking classes. So this is a natural thing. You're continuing your learning so that you can share that knowledge, hopefully, with other people as well. [Christopher Wesley] Well, and I'll add to that, just another thing too, is if you're a smaller church or even a big church and you're struggling to hire more people, look at the money that you do have and say like, okay, well, how can I invest more in the people that I do have? And so if you invest in people's professional development or formation, you'll get a lot more out of them because then you're, you're helping them grow stronger and bigger with that. So. [Tom Pounder] yeah this is great well chris is great encouragement here i love these four levels that you included um talk to me a little bit about marathon youth ministry how do you help are you just only helping youth ministers or do you have other stuff as well that you're helping [Christopher Wesley] No, we're doing more than that. We're working with anyone who is in those formation ministries that I was talking about before. So discipleship or catechetical ministries, as we see in the Catholic Church. And so we're there to help people, again, grow and just develop as leaders. And so, you know, a couple of ways that they can do that is the freeways, the blog, just going and subscribing there. Actually, next month or in the month of October, we're going to be releasing a premium newsletter and everything with some, some bonus content and everything there. And then we've got our cohorts and anytime someone just wants to set up, whether it's a one-on-one coaching call, like a one-time coaching gig or a reoccurring coaching, we'll do everything from helping them grow in their, their leadership. Or, you know, again, going back to that human formation, help them again as managers and leaders in that, in that regards. And so to do that, just go to marathon youth ministry.com. We're on Instagram and Facebook at Marathon Youth Ministry. And Tom knows how to find me on Twitter, although I'm not very much these days. So yeah. [Tom Pounder] Yes, but it's good. So yeah, I'll share all that information out for you. Again, Christopher's got a ton of great stuff on his blogs. I mean, I love reading his blogs again, and they're more than just, it says Marathon Youth Ministry, but it's more so than, I love getting the leadership lessons out of your blog posts. So it's great. Well, Chris, as always, it's great having you on. When this goes live, your Yankees will be in the playoffs and hopefully your Giants will be playing well with Saquon Barkley and stuff. So we'll see what happens. [Christopher Wesley] That's very mature of you. And, you know, if anyone ever doubts Tom is a man of integrity and so forth, because although sometimes he roots for the Yankees, I know it's hard with the Nationals being where they are. And, you know, hey, I'll be at least you're not an Eagles fan. I'll say that. So there you go. [Tom Pounder] Thank you. I'm not an Eagles fan and I'm not a Commanders fan. [Christopher Wesley] Yeah, Commanders, whatever that is these days. [Tom Pounder] It'll change again probably soon. [Christopher Wesley] Yeah. [Tom Pounder] Well, Chris, as always, it's great having you on. Thanks so much for being with me today. [Christopher Wesley] Hey, no problem, Tom. [Tom Pounder] All right. So what did you think of the interview? What stood out to you? What was an area that Christopher was talking about that maybe encouraged you or challenged you? I know I was challenged in it as well. So I would love to hear from you. Share below or on Twitter at TAPounder. You can even tag Christopher as well. I've got all his stuff. in the show notes, so definitely check that out. But tag us. We would love to continue this conversation online so that we can grow as leaders. We really do need to grow as leaders. We cannot be stagnant at all with where we're at. We need to keep on growing in different ways. And these four areas were awesome. And I hope you were challenged and encouraged in it today. So again, put it in the comment section or hit us up on Twitter. We'd love to carry on this conversation. All right, heroes, thanks so much for joining me. As always, if you enjoy the podcast, go to thechurch.digital. You can get it there every single week along with my blogs and other podcasts and resources that thechurch.digital offers. Or you can just subscribe to it at YouTube. You can go to Apple and Spotify as well. We've got it all there, and we'd love for you to subscribe to it so you get these every time they come out. All right, heroes, well, I hope you have a great rest of your day, a great rest of your week. Until next time, have a great one.