Practicing the Ministry of Digital Presence with Teens

What is the art of doing ministry in the digital world? How can you do digital discipleship amongst teenagers? That's what we're talking about today. Are you ready? Because it's time.

You're listening to the Church Digital Sidekick Podcast, part of the TCD Podcast Network.

Hello heroes my name is Tom Pounder and this is the church digital psychic podcast this is the podcast where we bring on ministry leaders and we talk about how to do ministry more effectively in this very digital and online world and today i've got a friend of mine brett talley from orange inn and brett wrote a blog post a little bit ago about digital discipleship and how you can do discipleship with teenagers digitally and what does that look like and so we have a great conversation i'm really excited about him sharing because Just like in-person discipleship can happen with teenagers, digital discipleship can happen with teenagers. And so we talk about how that can happen. And we talk about this thing of the ministry of digital presence. What does that look like for teenagers today? Again, that's what we talk about. So you ready to get in an interview? I am too. Let's get into the conversation with Brett Talley right now. All right, with me right now is Brett Talley. Brett, how are you? I'm good, man. How are you? I'm doing great. Seems like we're both wearing hats today and we're both in this casual kind of atmosphere today.

I am hat guy. If I'm anything, I'm hat guy for whatever reason. It's just I have kind of out of control, kind of coarse thick hair. And so I just throw a hat on every opportunity I get.

Do you have a favorite hat? Oh, man.

Well, I have. So we did high school camp at Orange. We had a high school camp for about four or five years. And we have just a black HSC high school camp hat. And I got one of those and wore it a lot. And then when I was in our warehouse a while ago, I found a full sleeve of them. So I have like 20 of them. And so I tend to wear that a lot. So I guess I'd go with that or a Braves hat, big Braves fan. So I've got some Braves hats.

Oh, that's good. See, I go from hat to hat. This is actually a Catalyst hat that we got years ago. It was Catalyst sent it to our church and I was like, oh, I kind of like this hat. So I just started wearing it. But depending on the sports season, I changed my hat. So during football season, I'll wear some Penn State stuff or Dallas Cowboys stuff. And now I'm getting ready to wear some Washington Nationals stuff, but they're not going to be very good.

We don't need to talk about the Nationals this year. I won't make you do that.

No, thank you. Listen, whenever I have Robert Carnes on, he and I always talk about the Braves and the Nationals.

That's awesome.

You Georgians, you all like your Braves.

It's a good time to be a Braves fan.

It is a good time. Better than a Nats fan.

It is.

Well, Brett, I know you and I know your background, but people listening today may not. So why don't you tell people a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Yeah, I'm a pastor's kid who felt the call to ministry at a pretty young age and didn't really know what that meant. But when you're 20 years old and you feel called to ministry, it kind of feels weird to think about leading 55-year-olds in their spiritual journey. And so you tend to kind of fall into student ministry and just kind of really develop the passion. For me, this idea of call was always where do my gifts and my opportunities and my passions just kind of all line up? And really for most of my life, that has just been kind of in this student space with middle schoolers and high schoolers and kind of helping them process their faith. So I'm an ordained pastor in the Church of God out of Anderson, Indiana. And yeah, I've spent 11 years in full-time ministry in local churches. and came across Orange in about 2009 and started reading a lot from Orange and using XP3 and going to Orange Conference, Orange Tour, just really enjoyed it, really resonated with the philosophy and the strategy and found myself becoming a student Orange specialist in 2016, which is essentially kind of like the coaching consultation arm of what we do at Orange. And so, yeah, I've been doing that ever since. I actually recently, transitioned into a role doing staff culture stuff with Orange, too, of kind of trying to help it be the best place it can be. So, yeah, that's my world.

That's awesome. And you've been at the Orange Conference a number of years and you've led different breakout sessions. Are you leading a breakout session this year coming up?

Yeah, there's a few that I'm hopping into. We do one every year about kind of what's coming up with Orange students curriculum. And so I'll be Help put out with that one i'm doing one the insider language is on the seven segments, so if you're use XP three or any orange curriculum you're probably familiar with the seven segments, but. Essentially, it's kind of what, you know, the breakout is along the lines of, you know, the essential roadmap for your ministry programming, something along those lines where we dive into the strategy pieces there. And then me and Katie Moore out in California are doing one about what youth leaders need to know about mental health, walking through some of the springtide research that they've done this past year on young people and mental health. So I feel overwhelmed right now with the amount of breakouts I'm going to be helping with, but I'm really excited about it.

That's awesome. Well, and it's kind of good because this podcast will go out well before Orange starts. So let's at the end, we'll talk about Orange and what you're excited about with Orange, the conference coming up and how people can sign up. But today I want to talk to you about a blog that you did on Orange leaders and I'll include the link on the show notes. But it's talking about digital discipleship and how you can do it with teenagers and why you can do it with teenagers. So let me just kind of get the ball rolling a little bit and talk about this. How can we use technology to help students become more like Christ? Why is it important for digital discipleship?

Yeah, I'm going to do that pastor thing where I take a step back and look at a bigger picture version of the question before I step into it. The idea of discipleship, you know, we're just talking about this. Sometimes there's pushback of like, no, you can't do discipleship digitally. It has to be done in person. And I would disagree with that. I would agree that discipleship needs to happen relationally, but that doesn't necessarily have to always mean that it's physical proximity all the time. And the word discipleship so often translates literally to the idea of student. But student doesn't necessarily really help us understand what a disciple really is or what discipleship is because the idea for a student is to learn what the teacher teaches. And so the idea of apprentice in our understanding is really a better translation because an apprentice doesn't just learn what the teacher teaches, learns to be who the teacher is or do what the teacher does. And so... The question simply about digital discipleship is, it's not about information, it's about transformation when it comes to discipleship. And I know that that's something that we talk about in student ministry all the time. It's not just about, I know things and I want you to know things. And so ministry is me telling you what you need to know that I already know. but it's how do i help you yeah there's some understanding there but how do i help you become like christ how do i help you begin to transform into who god has created you to be and so to me the question is simply how can we use technology to help students become more like christ um and I think that we're really shooting ourselves in the foot as the church if we aren't willing to get creative on how we use technology to create opportunities to help students become more like Christ.

Yeah. And because the reality is, you know, you can fight technology or you can kind of embrace it a little bit. And, you know, in some of your stats that you put is that 70 percent of Americans identify as church members. And that was in 1999. In 2021, that number is now 47 percent. And so people are not really involved in church as much, but they're on their phones pretty regularly. They're on their phones every single day and the stats prove it. So what is it? How would you encourage a student minister to really say, hey, the tendency would be to fight this and not engage in this. But how would you encourage them to maybe embrace it a little bit more?

Yeah, so there. Man, these are you know, there's there's so there's so much about this conversation that's loaded and goes down so many different so many different paths, but. there has always been a come to us aspect of of the church i shouldn't say always in in recent american history i'll just say because that's what i'm most familiar with obviously but there is this come to us and to an extent, there's good reason. Like, I think there are great things that happen inside of our churches. I think that we should pay attention and focus. I think that that's an important tension to hold as we have this conversation is that there isn't a replacing that we're talking about. There is a supplementing that we're talking about. And so none of this is to replace what we do in physical proximity as the church. But the reality is, that the um statistics are showing us that with every generation there are lower and lower trust levels that people have in institutions and they include the church in in that institution and so there is less and less likelihood that they will show up to our spaces to even hear what it is that we have to say. But what's wild, Springtide, I'll mention Springtide multiple times. I love what they do in the realm of faith and young people and research, springtideresearch.org. But Springtide showed this last year, 78% of 13 to 25 year olds consider themselves spiritual. So there is this disconnect between them feeling this, there's something bigger-ness to life, and feeling like going to church is a way to explore or or find some answers when it comes to that so they're not going to come to us for that and so how do we show up for for them in their world when it comes to that and even even those students that do show up to us for those things are showing up more sporadically and less regular than ever so it's not just how do we use technology to reach those people that are never going to show up into our doors but how do we use technology to better engage those students who are only showing up two to three times a year to help them feel more connected and more engaged in their faith community even if they aren't or are unable to show up as often as we'd like them to yeah

Now, that's a great point. Again, I always like to go back to what Young Life has kind of coined the phrase of go where they are, you know, go where, you know, and so back in the 60s and 70s and 80s, you know, they're going to the malls, you know, they're going to the football games. And again, student ministers can still go to football games, concerts, performances, all that kind of stuff. But again, considering that they have a phone in their pocket and most middle school and high school kids have them in America, I believe. Especially the iPhones. iPhones are the best phones. I hope you have an iPhone. I do. Okay, good. But the reality is that because we can go there and really minister to them. And I like to use the, this is not my phrase, this is a phrase I've heard before, but just being a digital missionary. That student ministers really can be on the forefront of being a digital missionary and minister to kids every single day. if they want to and um because of the the ability to smartphone so what have you seen to be effective in digital discipleship with technology how how have you seen that work in what you're looking at yeah again i think that there are some you know there are there are different buckets i think one of the buckets is the idea of how do we reach students digitally who are never going to show up in our space um

And there are some really cool, you know, YouTube, what's the stat? YouTube is the number one search engine in America, you know, that even more than Google, especially teenagers are going to YouTube. And I mean, I do this all the time. I don't know about you, but I'm not necessarily a handyman. And so how to fix my dryer, how to fix my washing machine. Like, I mean, it's on a regular basis and teenagers are doing the same things and they're asking questions into YouTube and they're seeing what pops up. There are Dave Adamson is someone that I might mention multiple times. He wrote a book called Metachurch. He you know, he's a friend of mine and also just a very, very smart person when it comes to these ideas. But. there is something really important that some churches have gotten really good at about how do we use the content that we are creating and how do we put it in places like youtube and when it comes to how we title it and when it comes to the questions that we put into the titles and the keywords that we use how do we help these things show up when a teenager googles things like um how to deal with anxiety and what to do when you feel lonely and the kind of questions that they're asking google and how do we take the content that we feel like is helpful that we feel like points them to a loving god that we want them to understand for those students that are never going to show up into our spaces how do we use the things that we do inside of our faith community to also reach them So YouTube is one of those examples. You know, one church to look up maybe is Sandals. Sandals is a multi-site church out in California. And Taylor is a guy they hired over the pandemic. They went out and they hired somebody specifically to be a digital student pastor for them. And so, you know, they're a larger church. They have more resources than a lot of, you know, than the vast majority of most churches to be able to do some of those things. uh but i also think that there are some really cool things that we can learn from churches that have the resources to do those things and figure out what that looks like for us um but then i feel like the lowest hanging fruit because you know some pastors especially if we're talking about volunteer student pastors or by vocational student pastors it's like hang on you're talking about me being able to take content find snippets, put it on YouTube, learn all of these strategies about how to title things. And some of us it's just like, I'm just not gonna be able to do that. And so the lower hanging fruit is, okay, who's on your roster? versus who is actually showing up and creating some strategies and some intentionalities around how we use digital proximity, your digital presence to stay engaged in the life of everyone on our roster, not just those people that are showing up, showing up in our in our spaces and i could get on a soapbox and talk about that a lot if you if you want to dive into that space but i think there is so much really easy low-hanging fruit that we are missing when it comes to how to stay engaged in the life of those people that would consider us their faith community but might only show up into our space two to three times a year

Yeah. Okay, let's talk about that because I think that's really important because, again, like I said earlier, we have the opportunity every single day to minister to people and disciple people. Discipleship is not just going through a Bible study together. It's not just going through and sharing your sermon on video and stuff like that. Discipleship can happen every single day. So let's talk about that, what you were just talking about.

yeah so i want to talk about the ministry of digital presence for a second um so when i was on staff at a church in indianapolis um our uh we had somebody on staff as an associate pastor his name was uh jim cook and jim is one of those like just stage leaders where like like yoda like everything he said like you wanted to write down because it's just like it's so amazing and he would he would talk to me a lot about the idea of the just the ministry of presence um and most of us have probably heard this idea before that especially in times of tragedy and crisis there's nothing that we are going to say that's going to make things very much better and we probably have the likelihood of saying something that's going to make it feel worse um hey everything happens for a reason or you know those kind of things that we we you know sometimes in the world of of christians we throw out as platitudes because we think it's helpful and it's just not and so he he really honed in on the idea of just show up just be and he would always talk about this idea of being the physical reminder of the presence of god with people especially in times of crisis in times in times of tragedy and it is um may of 2020 my wife and i volunteer as small group leaders in our church's middle school ministry May of 2020, we've been on Zoom for a couple of months. We're in that Zoom fatigue level of ministry where, hey, we were having some pretty good luck in the first four weeks or so of getting those students to show up on our Zoom, small group time. And now nobody's showing up. Nobody's returning text messages. Everybody's just kind of in this funk. And our group was eighth graders at that point. So we had had sixth grade, seventh grade and eighth grade with them. And we're at the end of their eighth grade year, kind of like the culmination of their middle school ministry experience. And everybody's just ghosting us. And she was just really, really frustrated. And this idea of the ministry of presence came to mind because she was, you know, talking about how, like, why do I even bother? Like, I'm not I'm not even going to bother texting them, calling them anymore because they're just not responding. And I just kind of had this epiphany of like, wait, why? But why are we texting them? Are we texting them so that they respond back to us and we feel good because we feel like we did something good and we're having an impact in their lives? That is great. There's nothing wrong with that. It definitely makes me feel better when students text me back or answer my call or call me back. But even if we reach out and they don't respond back we're reminding them that we're still there we're reminding them that they're in their corner and hopefully even if it's just subconsciously we're reminding them of a god who was also still there and still present whether or not they're responding back to god and so to me there is this important reminder for us that we don't try to connect with students outside of church um because we want them to respond back for us to feel better hopefully they engage but the the goal here is to just remind them that we're there and we're in their corner um and this is going to be another soapbox moment when we reach out to them we are not reaching out to them in a way that is always pointing them back to the ministry so here so for me this is what i did for so many years um connor doesn't show up for three weeks to church and so i text connor connor what's up man i've missed seeing you at church hope your life is good hope i get to see you sometime soon what i'm trying to do is help connor understand that hey man we miss you around here it's not the same around here when you're not here all good intentions What likely happens on Connor's end is he's feeling shamed and feeling like he's disappointed me by not showing up when he probably didn't even have a say in whether or not he was able to show up. And what I've also done is I've continued to define my conversation with Connor through the lens of how often Connor shows up to my thing. and so i i you know flipped a switch a few years ago where any time that i reach out to students i never talk about church stuff so it's always like parker what's up man how's baseball season going i know you guys are getting ready for the season how you feeling about it and so i'm always reaching out about their world and sometimes they turn the conversation back to like hey it's going good i know i haven't been to church in a long time i hope i can come back soon and then i've got a chance to be like hey man it'd be great to see you i know things are crazy you know we can get together outside of church too if it helps you know you free to get together for lunch sometime Something along those lines. So I'm helping them redefine the relationship because I'm not just a chaperone for them when they show up in my space. I need to own being a spiritual shepherd. Even as a volunteer, I am the spiritual shepherd in Parker's life, in Connor's life. And so how am I leading that even if only digitally because they don't show up? I told you soapbox moment. I ranted there. But that's just there's some real passionate feelings for me about that.

No, I'm right there with you. I've always said a lot in what I've been leading student ministry is consistency matters. You showing up matters because students are dealing with so many inconsistencies and that they need to know that their spiritual leader. I love how you said that your spiritual leader, not a chaperone. You're not just someone who just observes things. You're really involved in their lives. I love how you said that. But that's who you are. And that's why, honestly, I still do this. I've been doing ministry for a really long time. So my former students are now on Facebook and they'll check Facebook, even though nobody's on Facebook anymore. But every day, Facebook reminds me of birthdays that are today. And so I go on there and there are a lot of former students that I wish happy birthday. And I'm I'm involved in a text thread with some of my former students. And I'm like, hey, guys, wish so and so happy birthday. It's their birthday today. And they're like, Tom, why do you do that? And I'm like, because I want them to know that I still think about them. I still care about them. I still pray for them. And I don't bring up church to them. I just wish them a happy birthday. And I say, I hope you have a fantastic day. But I also hope that they also remember, hey, you know what? That time when I was in the youth group with Tom, those were some amazing times. And if they're far from God, maybe they start thinking about getting back closer to God. But again, it's a digital presence thing that I love that you were just talking about.

Yeah, because we don't have the kind of physical proximity. I think Dave might talk about this in his book, but he talks about how when we think about discipleship in Jesus's time, I mean, you're spending, you know, the disciples spent almost every day with Jesus for three years. You know, they were sent out. There were some times that, you know, they weren't necessarily together those whole three years, but discipleship, there was literally like a following around. Like it was like shadowing somebody. And that's just not the world we live in right now. At best, our physical proximity gets us 40 to 50 hours a year with our most committed students. And so physical proximity can't be the only way, the only strategy that we have and how we're going to model and kind of build our discipleship processes around.

Yeah, this is awesome. This has been fantastic. I'm encouraged by this, and I know that other people will be encouraged as well. As we wrap up a little bit, what would you encourage leaders to be doing right now? How to think about this stuff?

Yeah, I think that some of the lowest hanging fruit is to start thinking roster over attendance and so look at look at your whole roster who has who has shown up springtide i think had a a stat about um and i'm kind of paraphrasing this but roughly a student would still consider themselves affiliated to a faith community even if they hadn't shown up in 18 months um As churches, sometimes we clear the roles like, okay, if you haven't been here in six months, you get pushed to inactive. But I would, to challenge us to really think strategically about who we still include in our roster. then getting really intentional about about beginning to measure how often we stay connected to those students so not just measuring who shows up to our space which we should that's valuable again what we do week in and week out in our programming it matters we should be really intentional about making it the best most helpful experience for the faith development of our students as we can um But it's not the only measure of success that we have. And that allows us to lead up sometimes of being able to say to leadership, like, hey, over the month of January, we averaged 11 students on Wednesday nights. But 100% of the 39 students on our roster connected with their small group leader physically or digitally during that month there is something that casts a vision there to leadership to say hey what we do in person matters we value it we're making it the best experience we can but we are being intentional about reaching out to students on their turf and connecting with them. So thinking roster, not just attendance, and then beginning to measure some of those digital metrics. And, you know, whether it's social media comments and, you know, Instagram engagement, like you can start diving into all of that if you want to. But the lowest hanging fruit is how many people did we connect with? And I would even throw phone calls in that. So, you know, phone calls is. because there are some tricky things sometimes with text messaging and we want to be really careful and as churches we should have some sort of safety policies and some accountability um i know that you know some safe sanctuary policies for a lot of umc churches kind of doesn't even allow you to do some one-on-one texting other churches um they've got some other uh i've got a friend tom shefshunis who says that like hey text messaging gives you receipts like if nobody should be deleting text messages with students we shouldn't be texting you know cross-gendered i think that there are some really clear boundaries our church encouraged us to be able to text students one-on-one and it's just it's just different for different churches so we should have some you know some guidelines and some boundaries to protect the students for sure and to also protect uh the leaders in the church but what are the ways that we're measuring how we're proactively reaching out to students and um and then also sharing that with leadership i think that that's some really low hanging fruit of how we can begin to use you know the tools that are available to us in order to stay to stay connected and build those relationships

Yeah, let me speak to that just for a second from a personal example from my ministry over the years. One is every social platform gives you analytics, so you should be able to measure how you're doing. You can check that. If you have an issue, just talk to me. I'd like to talk to you about it. But also, again, with student ministry, so many churches will look at just the Sunday night attendance or the Wednesday night attendance. And years ago, when people were asking me, Tom, why is your Sunday night attendance only this? And I'm like, but you don't see what's happening throughout the week. And so I started measuring what we're doing outside from Monday to Saturday, what we're doing. And that changed the game for me. And it showed the church, we're not just doing stuff on Sunday. We're doing stuff every single day. And this is what we're doing. And so I really, I think what you just shared there is right on on that.

So. I have one last kind of wrap up thought is kind of an encouragement. And that would be just the idea of aiming for faithfulness. I know that it can be so overwhelming. I mean, I can't tell you how many conversations I had. You probably felt it and had the same conversations during 2020, 2021. How discouraged that leaders felt about their digital influence. You know, maybe for a month, people showed up to the Zooms or they watched the Instagram lives or what you posted on YouTube because it was kind of new and kind of fresh and they were bored and didn't have anything else to do. But I mean, shoot, by fall, everybody was like, I can't get them to do anything. I can't get them to watch. I can't get them to respond. And there's kind of just this discouragement that I know that can still be felt. in this realm of digital discipleship, digital ministry. And so my encouragement is to aim for faithfulness. Like you're not always gonna get the results that you want. And so trying things and learning from them and not doing well, like it is... It is what it is. But what does it mean for you to be faithful to what God has called you to do? What does it mean for you to be faithful to the students and the families that are, you know, kind of in your sphere of influence and aim for faithfulness? Try new things, take some risks. But even in those moments where you feel a little bit discouraged, which is OK to feel, you know, take take some solace and like, hey, I'm. I'm doing the best we can and trusting that something is going to land and something is going to get used here.

Yeah, dude, that's awesome. That is so encouraging because it is. Faithfulness is so important. You're going to go through highs and lows with rough seasons, but just still remain faithful. God's going to provide. Brett, this has been awesome. Before I let you go, though, I do want you to talk about the Orange Conference coming up. What are you excited about? What's the theme? Give me a general overview.

yeah so the idea for uh orange conference happens the uh the last week of april april 26th through 29th um it's in the atlanta georgia area um this is i mean i don't even know how many orange conferences this is i think this might be our 15th or 16th or something like that uh the theme is see you tomorrow so which is pretty great about what we're talking about here is that you know the whole idea of ministry is not i see you next sunday But ministry is see you tomorrow is is a how are we helping students develop an everyday faith, not just a Wednesday night or a Sunday faith. But then how are we showing up in their lives, what are the promises that we're making by saying see you tomorrow and how we're going to walk with them in their journey so. yeah there's a lot that i'm that i'm really excited about we've got some uh some great one thing that we're doing a little bit different than we've you know we've had breakouts you know for i don't know how long um but we're shifting them and calling them workshops now i know for me coming to conferences and sitting into breakouts there was always such great information but sometimes i left not really knowing what like to how to actually do something with that and so we're trying to get a little bit more practical and tangible uh by moving to this idea of workshops um and so we're taking some you know we're making some promises about what those breakouts are going to be and how there's going to be some sort of takeaway to begin to start actually um facilitating and doing what it is that you know that we're talking about in those breakouts so that's one thing that i'm pretty excited about

Yeah, that's awesome. Actually, I just got an email the other day from Orange saying, hey, we want to hear about the workshops. We want to hear from you. Ask us a question now so that we can answer it in the workshop. I think that's a great way to get interactivity and real practical stuff to it. So I think that's going to be great.

Yeah, because who like I mean, this has happened to me, whether it's Orange or other things where I think that they're going to talk about something at a breakout and they end up talking about. something totally different that wasn't necessarily applicable for me and so that is one of the things everybody that signs up for a workshop is going to get a little survey that kind of basically what would be most helpful for you what are your expectations for this and then the speaker gets that and they kind of get to shape what they talk about based on the feedback that they get yeah it's going to be awesome so i'll include the links for the orange conference in the show notes uh and brett how can people connect with you where where on social media are you at the most and how can they connect with you Yeah. Instagram, Twitter. It's it's at Brett Ryan Talley for for both of those. Brett Ryan Talley dot com. You know, I'll post some blogs and do some things here and there on there. So those would be the the main things.

That would be great. Well, I will include those in the show notes as well. So you can connect with Brett on Instagram or preferably Twitter because Twitter is the best place to go.

I love Twitter.

I do. I love Twitter, too. So, Brett, it's awesome. Thanks so much for being with me today.

No sweat. Thanks, guys.

All right, so what do you think of the conversation with Brett? What stood out to you? I would love for you to share that with me today, and you can even share it with Brett. Again, his Twitter's on there, but hit me up on Twitter, at TAPounder. What has been your experience with digital discipleship with students? How have you grown to that? How have you experimented with that? What does it look like for you in your ministry context? Definitely share it in the comments section below, or again, hit me up on Twitter, at TAPounder. brett and i would love to carry this conversation on with you a little bit more but also check out the orange conference i got all the links there for them the orange conference is a fantastic conference for family ministry leaders and senior pastors as well but you got children's ministry student ministry family ministry leaders senior pastors all learning together about how to do ministry in today's world so check out the orangeconference.com you got all the details right there All right, heroes, well, thanks so much for joining me today. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, subscribe to it. It's on YouTube, it's on Apple, it's on Google, Amazon, all the platforms. So just go and subscribe today. It's on the show notes of all the links you can get this on. But I would love for you to do that and check out thechurch.digital where we've got tons of blogs, tons of cohorts, and coaching that's going on right now. So if you have not checked out thechurch.digital, Go there and get a lot more information about how you can do ministry more effectively in today's world. All right, heroes. Well, thanks so much again for being with me today, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.