How One Digital Missionary is Using Twitter to Minister

[Tom Pounder] Today we're going to see how one minister is using online ministry to minister to people around her. And it's not even a part of her job. What is she doing and how is she doing it? Find out in a second because it's time. [Announcer/Intro Voice] You're listening to the Church Digital Sidekick Podcast, part of the TCD Podcast Network. [Tom Pounder] hey heroes my name is tom pounder this is the church digital sidekick podcast this is the podcast where i bring on ministry leaders and we talk about how you can do ministry more effectively in this very digital and online world and today i'm bringing sarah kinzer on sarah is actually someone i knew really long ago actually i didn't really know her we our paths crossed a long time ago and in so many unique ways but we actually met on twitter and started having a conversation on twitter and she's got a great podcast called pocket pulpit and it's a great podcast that she co-hosts and she is doing some amazing stuff online using her podcast but also using twitter she's using twitter to really minister to people and that's not even a part of her job at her church she's just doing it and she's doing a fantastic job of it so what is she doing and how is she doing it we're going to have that great conversation right now but before we do that i want to encourage you to check out the church.digital if you don't check out the church.digital you're missing great content and great encouragement on how to do ministry more effectively in this very digital and online world. There's lots of great podcasts, there's lots of great blog posts, and there's coaching and cohorts happening all the time. So go to thechurch.digital today and be encouraged in your digital and online ministry. All right, so without any further ado, let's get into our conversation with Sarah Kinzer. All right, with me right now is Sarah Kinzer. Sarah, how are you? [Sarah Kinzer] I'm good. How are you? [Tom Pounder] I am doing great. It's great to see you and great to talk with you. You and I have met. Well, actually, we knew each other on Twitter. And then when we became Facebook friends, you revealed something about me that I had no idea that that you and I actually crossed paths when you were in high school and I was in college. uh so and then we started talking about all these mutual friends that we have so um i am i'm really excited to have you on the podcast and really excited to talk to you but i want to know again a little bit let's share with people who you are and what you do and and then we can kind of get into a little bit of our history even though we don't have much of a history of remembering or actually i don't but um but we have a lot of mutual friends so it's kind of fun that uh we get can talk about that so Give people a little bit of background about who you are. [Sarah Kinzer] So my name is Sarah. I live in the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia. I have I have two kids and two cats and two turtles and one husband. [Tom Pounder] And no dogs. [Sarah Kinzer] No, no, no, no. Well, you know, my son turned out to be allergic to everything, including cats. But we already had cats. So, yeah. um but he tends to have bigger reactions to dogs even though the allergy test showed less of a reaction that's probably more than we wanted to know but there's a fun fact my kids allergic to animals but we have animals um so my i am a uh licensed minister with the church of the nazarene my title at my church is director of generational ministries um But in my spare time, I co-host the Pocket Pulpit with my dear friend, Hector Martinez. And I just, for the past couple of years, have been just sort of experimenting on social media to see different ways that you can care for and minister to people online. [Tom Pounder] Yeah, and that's what we're going to talk about today. But let's go back to your podcast real quick. How did you meet Hector? Because isn't he on the opposite side of the country? [Sarah Kinzer] He is, and it's so exciting because next week Hector's, well, next week from, I don't know when you release this, but next week from now. i'm gonna go out and have an adventure and i'm gonna meet hector and i'm gonna watch him get married and it's gonna be phenomenal i'm so excited um but hector and i met on twitter um we were we we've gone back and forth on like was it a movie like there are people who had a zoom movie night during covid and was it in one of those or in a thread or something but um you know he had the same sort of interest in just looking around social media and saying what way are in what ways are people ministering to others online and and so we just would start talking about theories and like ideas and then we would see people that we interact and we'd be we would say like did you see the way that she was vulnerable and encouraged others through her story like that's ministry actually and like did you see the way that these people stepped up to provide for that need like that's ministry that that can happen here and so like um it was about a year ago we were having these conversations and it was like well um what do you think could we have a podcast do you think people would listen to this and we thought we could probably put together about six episodes. Best case would be 12. And maybe then we would run out of things to talk about. But we wanted to hear people, we wanted to look around and see people, see where people were doing what we had been seeing, ministering to other people online and just sort of highlight those stories. And we are, it took us a couple months. We were just sort of like slowly moving into it. it felt kind of scary i don't know if anybody else is scared when they start a podcast but we were a little nervous about it um but we are you know coming up on i think maybe about 10 months we've done 30 some episodes like who would have thought yeah [Tom Pounder] that's awesome that's awesome okay we're gonna dig into that a little bit in a little bit uh because i think it's fascinating i love listening to your podcast and the people that you bring on to your podcast are awesome you haven't brought me on yet but that's okay i mean just i totally get it i totally get it um but uh but let's talk about you and i for a second because uh we we met via twitter uh and um and then you facebook friend requested me and then you messaged me on twitter saying how do you know so-and-so person this guy named tommy and i'm like well you know we talked about this and and then you're like he was your prom date [Sarah Kinzer] was my prom date he was a friend of mine from church and we went to promise as friends and like um tommy is just he is a fun guy so i just i have always had just fond memories of him and but it was surprising you know you you see those mutuals and it's like who would have who would have thought yeah [Tom Pounder] Yeah, and we just went down the rabbit hole then. And so you graduated, you went to Madison or Oakton? [Sarah Kinzer] I went to Oakton. Oh my goodness, I went to Oakton. Come on now. [Tom Pounder] You went to Oakton. And then you went to JMU. [Sarah Kinzer] Yes. [Tom Pounder] And that's kind of where you're at right now. You talked about the Shenandoah Valley, but if someone to look for that, it would be Harrisonburg, right? [Sarah Kinzer] Yeah, we live in one of the small towns outside, but yeah, basically Harrisonburg. [Tom Pounder] That's cool. OK, so how did you get involved with ministry then? [Sarah Kinzer] Well, I was actually focused on early childhood education and was teaching preschool in a nonprofit program. And was just sort of. there's there's sort of the there's you know it's a thick story those stories are always thick but it was like um i was disappointed you you do all this for a child and they go to the next and if they don't have a teacher who sees them then they sort of that's the end of their story with you and um they're also like i i was really just um tired by like I believe in the power of education for a child. I believe that it sets kids up to succeed. But also, I believe that there are things in a child's life that put them at a distinct disadvantage. Needs that you can't meet through education. About safety needs and food needs for issues that come with poverty and and things of that nature that you can't and limitations that their parents have that are just limitations that their parents had before them and limitations that that restrict what they are able to provide for their child and i just remember being like i i don't want to only care for um people up to a point like i want to be able to fully care for people yeah um and so i know that that was a big draw for me but also like had this um i remember saying i was in our so i left uh early childhood education and had this space of time where i was sort of like well like i'm going to listen to what god has for me and i was volunteering at our church helping them clean out the clean out this big closet and i remember standing in there and thinking you know like all right god i will you can um I'll do whatever you want me to do, but I'm not discussing ministry with you. Like, thanks, but no, thanks. I'm not doing that. And like, if I present that to my husband, like, he'll think I'm crazy. I'm not going to do that. I'm not doing it. He'll think I'm over emotional and having some sort of mental breakdown. And so the next week, the preacher was up there giving a message and he said, he was talking about considering the cost before you build. know like making the plans and making sure that you were going to make plans that you followed through on and he said you know are you really ready he said this probably nine times in his method are you really ready to hear what the lord has to say to you and um having just to the lord like i'll listen to you but not about that and then he was like he said if you um are unwilling like if you are holding might put your family before what the lord has to say to you um and i just um are you more interested in listening to these people than the lord and i just remember being like i'm scared of what my husband will think um and And I remember just sitting next to my husband, just so convicted by like, I haven't even given my husband the chance to respond to this. And I do feel like the Lord is saying ministry to me. And I had like, right next to me was all of my fear and anxiety. And my husband looked at me and whispered, he was like, what's going on? And I was like, what would you say if I thought that God was calling me into ministry? And like, I was sure he would be like, I would say that you were having a nervous breakdown and we would discuss this after lunch. And he was like, well, then that's what you do. And there's been in shifts and the Lord has clarified his call on my life through the years and he will continue to do that. And he's brought children into my life, but he's also brought like college age kids into my life and youth and adults and different people. And I'm always looking for the invisible people. Like that's where my heart is, for the people who aren't seen and who don't feel seen and to help other people not have blind spots. So like not make other people feel unseen. So if there's a person who feels unseen out there, like I feel like the Lord is just like, look at that one, look at this one. And so where I am now, like the Lord has put on my heart, this ministry online and online is just full of people who feel unseen, who feel invisible. And you think of all the time that we spent online, you know, with COVID and everything. And it was like, you couldn't see one another. And, and in that time, it was like, God was doing that. Like, look at this person, look at this person. see them help them feel seen help other people see these people and so that's that's what i'm trying to do is help people feel seen and be seen but like when um when hagar says you know abraham and sarah just call her your servant and then she runs off and she meets with the lord and She sees her and he calls her by name and it changes her future. It changes everything for her to be seen. [Tom Pounder] Yeah. Well, that is awesome. I mean, that is awesome because I think it's neat to see how God uses us in so many different ways. And where you start off is not always where you're ending up, but how God uses that passion on your heart for like what you just said, the unseen. and how it changes from time to time. And you're using that right now so effectively on online. And in particular, I see you on Twitter. I don't know if you're on other places, but I see you on Twitter and I see that you're really doing some really great stuff on Twitter. So what is it that made you or attracted you to Twitter? Because I know that like what you've been on Twitter for a year, a little bit more than a year. What got you involved with Twitter? [Sarah Kinzer] so i had for a while been trying things on facebook and instagram um and and those are fine i still do things on facebook and instagram i still do things every every week that are really intentional there um my friend aaron um who is at at reb do on or at red dove it's a it's a debate on how you say that anyway on twitter was i was talking with him and he was like well you should get on twitter and i was like well all i've ever heard about twitter is that twitter's the bad place and that it's just a it's a dumpster it's a dumpster fire and you shouldn't go there and um he was like well um i think you should go there and so i hopped on and i was like fine i'll give it a shot and i hopped on and like immediately um immediately like people responded to me and like the format of twitter is um a little quippy and like my style of speech can be kind of quippy um and so i liked the other thing is that i can take a long time to get to a point and so for the past like five years i've been trying to get better like there was a long time that everything i would present and i would be like Be brief, Sarah. Brevity is the aim of the game here. And so it's fun to have the challenge of can you present a whole point or can you open up a conversation in this short amount of time? So I really enjoy the format of Twitter where Instagram, like I bless the people who have a vibe, but have a clean corner in my house and that's the only vibe you're going to get out of me you know like i just i don't have a vibe i don't my i'm not trendy and i'm not um instagramable i don't feel instagramable so it's not really my place and facebook is a lot of like you know old friends and my family and those interactions like it's less about um just the audience is different. And so it changes the way that I interact with people. But Twitter, I really enjoy interacting with people there. [Tom Pounder] Yeah, I would agree with you on that. And again, a lot of people say to me, because I've been a big proponent of Twitter for a really long time, and they're like, it is a dumpster fire. And I just like to call it just this beautiful train wreck of sorts, because lots of conversations can happen on Twitter. And it's also a train wreck. I mean, it's like a disaster. You have to be very careful what you post and whatnot. um but that's exactly why twitter people need to be on twitter and ministering to people and serving people and encouraging people because it's such a dumpster fire and so i just think it's the perfect place for you for all of us as we look to minister to people so what have you found to be encouraging and maybe what have you found to be discouraging in your your in what you do [Sarah Kinzer] So I will say about the dumpster fire we talked about this on the pocket pulpit with when we had Kate Boyd on and it's like people will say that it's a dumpster fire social media, not just Twitter, but social media is a dumpster fire, but like as. And a lot of pastors and church leaders will leave social media because they'll say it's just such a mess it's it's no good and like. I don't want to be involved in that. But at the end of the day, it's a dumpster fire that our people are living in. Like your people are in a dumpster fire. Are you going to just leave them there to burn? And they walk. they walk through life with one foot in the digital and one foot in the physical and to not acknowledge where half of their body is people drive past our church all the time and i look out the window and i think to myself i wonder how many of those people not just are texting and driving but are scrolling facebook scrolling twitter scrolling instagram and driving yeah um because people do that it's not a safe choice don't do that i'm not recommending doing that but i look out the window and i wonder how many of these people when they are interacting are causing a physical risk to themselves by interacting with social media. And so like, in the same way, our people are creating, and we see it all the time, creating risk or creating changes in their physical world by their online interactions. And to not acknowledge that is, to turn a blind eye to what is burning your people up yeah um the so what is encouraging to me well i'll start with what's discouraging because you don't want to end up on what's discouraging yeah so um what's discouraging to me is um i i don't want the church is it discouraging it's it's something that i've watched recently and gone oh man if the church doesn't see this like um there's this gym that has um that i saw their ads and their twitter account is like everything they post on twitter it's a gym it's about community and being a part of this culture and it it just is on fire like people want to be a part of that and it's like why would the church use their website or their facebook page or whatever as a bulletin board when you look the world has figured out you can build community or um you know hector shared a um a tick tock with me that um where there is a it's like a it's a new secular men's thing if it was in the church we would call it men's ministry and it's like where they have time to come together and talk about their thoughts and feelings and reflect and then they offer times where you would go and be quiet and then they offer retreat and it's like these people are building a secular men's ministry and people are coming into it so why like the world is seeing the benefit um to what is what what people did want from the church and um I mean, it hurts my heart that we would let our fear of social media hold us back from ministry. And we get so involved in, I don't know, the theoreticals or the theology and arguing about these things. Like the world is telling, is is branding itself on a message of love right now and what do we have to offer that's different or what are we trying to offer like they're going to tell you love love is love love is love and they're going to come to church where we say okay um what we actually mean let me define these terms for you and you're going to get people who just want to come who just want to know like will you love me does god love me am i like am i fearfully and wonderfully made and we're gonna say so let me talk to you about what fearfully means and what made means and parse this out with you when it's just like feed them and clothe them and and love them and we're i mean i hate to see the church losing on any front um i don't want us to lose because we're we're afraid to try things and we're so concerned with doing things the we are so cautious that we can't be useful yeah [Tom Pounder] Well, and that's part of the reason why I love the idea of the digital missionary. People like yourself, people like me who are not using a church account to minister to people, but using our lives and sharing about our lives and sharing some encouragement. because I think if people can see, oh, that's what a Christian really looks like, then I think they're going to be more attracted to it. But we get, you're right, we use social media as an argument platform rather than a community building and love platform that I think you've been so good about doing. So what has been encouraging for you then? because you're doing really great stuff. I mean, so I would love to hear from you what you've seen and what you've been encouraged by as you've been ministering to people online. [Sarah Kinzer] So one of the things that I, there's a lot of things that's encouraged me. Good, good. There are like, there are people who are seeing needs and meeting needs. Like I think about Holly Stalkoff and the Rise Out. Like they see, needs and then they meet the need and they do that by a lot of like crowdsourcing fundraising kind of things um there are um voices that uh that you just wouldn't hear the it is encouraging to me one of the things that's very encouraging to me is that there are um women who or or other people who have been denied platforms and they are able to speak the word that God has given them because it's a different context and it's a context that people aren't, because of the lack of acknowledgement of the validity of online ministry, people aren't policing who gets to speak there so much. And so these people who haven't had a platform have a platform, have a voice. It is encouraging to me, to see how DMS have formed and zoom movie nights have happened. And so that there are people I know who are incredibly alone, incredibly, incredibly alone and cannot, um, man, like either they have health issues, they have, um, anxiety, depression. And we want to talk about like, there's this great rise of anxiety and depression, and there's this great, like all that's terrible. Um, So these people should come to our physical space. And it's like, it's asking this person with a limp to walk further. So we should go to them and be like, hey, hey brother, hey sister, can I walk with you? Can I help you get up? Like Jesus didn't stand at the top of a mountain and be like, if you can't, if you've got a broken ankle, come up here and I'll heal it. Like he walked among us. And then, you know, I see people, in conversation and like you were able like one of my favorite things is to help people um to facilitate conversations with people who see things differently and see them come to the same um to see the person on the other side as a person of worth and value and people will say well that's unique to social media that people don't see others as having worth and value um But it's not, it's everywhere. And so just as you can facilitate those conversations in person, you can facilitate those conversations online. And so the final thing I'll say that's encouraging to me is that I have gotten DMs from people who have said, you know, I was done with the church. I was mad at my, I was done with my church and because of something you've said, I've gone back. Or I was mad at my leadership and I wasn't gonna have this conversation, but you encouraged me to go have the conversation. I was, and not just returning to those old church situations, there's people who were going to be done with the faith, who have turned around and walked back and said, I want to know. And that like, to me, you wouldn't have found those people. I wouldn't have found those people otherwise. And those people, those churches who lost those people and who didn't have those conversations, like, don't need everybody to come to my church you know but i do need everybody like i do want everybody to come to christ yeah and to to have we're ministers of reconciliation and so where there's brokenness i want to see reconciliation yeah [Tom Pounder] I love so much about what you just said because I am fully convinced too. I think, again, we're hearing from people now that we've never got to hear from before because of physical limitations. I live in Northern Virginia. You live in a different part of Virginia. And, you know, again, you're not going to hear from me or I probably even though we ran across each other in our younger years, well, we probably never would have come across each other. But some of the things that you say on social media really encourages me and inspires me. It makes me laugh. And again, I love it, too, because you're not just posting all religious stuff. You're posting life stuff and people are really engaging. And I think that's a misconception that people have about social media, that if you're like a digital missionary and you're using it as a platform to share about Jesus. then you don't have to post about Jesus every single post. You can use it to really minister to different people at different times. And so I love what you're talking about here. And I love how you're using it to, again, Christ calls us to go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. And because of our phones, we have that opportunity now. Because of the computer, we have the opportunity now to go and share with all of the people and connect them with Jesus. Not only the people that live in Northern Virginia or in Harrisonburg or Roanoke. You're connecting people all over the world and inspiring them to connect with Jesus again. And that is very, very powerful. [Sarah Kinzer] Well, thank you. My most interacted with tweet, was actually one where I posted, I'm sick of deciding what's for dinner for the rest of my life. And that one I ended up having to mute because the amount of advice I got for meal planning was... more than I can handle after like a week of being told. [Tom Pounder] That is awesome. That's great. Okay. So you're using social media and you're encouraging people in Christ, but you also have a podcast. So let's talk about your podcast. Let's talk about Pocket Pulpit for a little bit. We already talked about how you met with Hector and how you got started, but what do you hope to do with that? And why should people listen to your podcast? [Sarah Kinzer] So the hope is that people will listen to it and they will try stuff. Hector and I talk about how we're not experts. Like barely anybody is an expert in the area of social media ministry or online church. There's barely anybody who can claim to be an expert. And if they do, like you should maybe just give them some time to prove that they are, you know? And so we talk to people. we've talked to people who are you know have just a couple hundred followers and we've talked to people who have tens of thousands of followers we'll talk to anybody who is putting effort into trying stuff online to reach other people and to care for them and to minister to people and so our hope is that people will listen to that and they will be encouraged to view their social media platforms as a ministry space and a ministry tool um so that they will go and walk into it and day to day live out their faith but also if you know there are people i meet people all the time who are like um i want to start this ministry i want to start that ministry i can't get my church on board i can't you know i can't get i don't know how to do this in my physical space or that you know where do you even do this and it's like well you know if if what the lord has put on your heart that you want to have a women's bible study and your leadership is like well that doesn't really fit into the vision of our church okay there's women online like have a bible study if the lord has put something on your heart do it if um what the lord has put on your heart is to encourage people who have been through um divorce by saying like this was my experience and this is how the lord has healed me in these ways like to use your voice to encourage others who are in the same place that you were in before whether it's divorce or um loneliness or anxiety or or any of the things that you have dealt with can the lord can use that that story um and just to encourage people to to try um to take risks and to um just to learn on how we should behave online so that we are faithful witnesses of christ yeah [Tom Pounder] Yeah, I love it. And again, I like how you said that you've got people in the trenches that are doing it. And that's what I like doing with my podcast too, is like, I like to give people, not thought leaders. I want people who are actually doing it and trying to practice it. And again, nobody is a social media or online ministry guru. There are some people who have been doing it longer than others, but the reality is social media changes all the time. Online ministry changes all the time. Even since the beginning of COVID, online ministry has changed. So again, I like just getting practical people who are doing practical things to minister to people online. And you're doing that as well. Your podcasts are great. I enjoy listening to them because, again, they're very practical and they're very encouraging as you have people sharing about that. What has been the one thing that you've loved about doing the podcast that you didn't think you would love doing? [Sarah Kinzer] Well, the. the thing that has ministered to me the most doing it is that each one of these conversations we have, the person will log off and then Hector and I just look at each other and go, whoa, like that was like the Lord just used that kind of, if this never gets out, that ministered to me. And then, and it, and we usually are about a month or more ahead on recording and releasing. And by the time they come out, they release, I'll listen back and it's like, it says new things to me. And so that is really encouraging. I don't know if this is a small neat thing, but it's a neat, neat thing is that Hector shared, looked the other day at the location of where people were listening. And like, we have people all over the world listening. Like that shocked me. I thought it would be like, there would be people in Seattle with Hector and people in Virginia with me. And then like, maybe one maybe one dude in florida you know but there's people all over the world listening and so that's really cool to me that's really cool yeah [Tom Pounder] Well, again, I love it. I hope you continue, guys, to do that and partner together on that because it's awesome. It's very encouraging. And I'm available anytime you want to interview me. [Sarah Kinzer] Excellent. [Tom Pounder] I'm totally kidding. All right. Well, we're going to wrap up here real quick. But before I get you to share how people can connect with you, I want you to share about your book, Abide. Tell me a little bit about that. [Sarah Kinzer] So I wrote Abide with the day to day demystification of holiness. right here this is my copy and i love it um it is um it looks at the topic of holiness um of sanctification an entire sanctification um and it's broken down there's 40 uh daily devotional style entries because the topic of holiness can be a lot a lot and i wanted to make it so that it um it was palatable and digestible and so um looking at is holiness possible and since um and spoiler alert i say yesterday and since um that's the premise and the lord says so in the bible that it's possible um how what does it look like and what examples does he have in the bible and what examples um what has he shown me through my own story um and through those um helping people understand what holiness is that it's not the um an imitation of the good behavior of god but an overflow of his spirit that is expressed through love that's awesome yeah um how was the writing book writing process was it i mean is it something you enjoyed or is it something that was really tough Well, like for years, people were like, Sarah, you should write a book. This is what you should do. You should write a book. And people get told they should write a book. People who have a way with words and whatnot, they get, but you know, that's kind of an overwhelming suggestion. And so like I had started several books and gotten like 30 pages in and been like, well, that was fun. And so I asked, my pastor at the time pastor perry willis who has written several books i said you know how did you do that and he was like i was like how do you write a book and he was like okay the right way to write a book is you write a book and it was like that doesn't feel like helpful information but now that i'm on the other side of it and people like how did you do it how did you write it it's like well the way to write a book is to write a book and so um i like i talked about earlier being brief trying to focus on on brevity yeah um so i thought about like i gave myself a challenge i was like here's what i'm going to do i'm going to say i want um i want to set the goal high enough that it's something that i have to work for but not overwhelming you know and so i said what i'm going to do is write 40 entries like single page entries on holiness and um and it gave me just steps to take, you know, like I would write a few and I was able to say like, this is what this story is and this is what this story is and here's how they flow together. And so having small, small goals. um to to work through was really helpful to me um for a long time i just called it my project and a friend of mine had to be like oh i read your i saw it because he was uh looking at it um before before publishing like i was looking at your book and i was like it's a project and he was like it's a book and i was like okay um and then um you know i don't want to go too far down into the the publishing the But I decided to independently publish. I had still had it out with several. Several different publishing houses looking at it when I said, you know what, like, I want the control. Yeah, I want to I want to say so on on all these different things and. and at the end of the day like i didn't write this book to become a new york times best-selling author i wrote this because this is the word that that god gave me and um and so the only person who gets something out of it is that i was obedient and did what the lord told me to do and then i can read back what the lord has said to me in the past like i'm i'm perfectly fine with that it is it is a blessing to me i came downstairs at church one day i found um we have volunteers who sit at our front desk and answer the phone and let people in and the lady who was sitting there i saw that she was reading a book and she had highlighters out and i came down and i realized she was reading my book and she was and it i mean like that blessed my heart that somebody would highlight my words um and people who have said like i didn't like i had never understood holiness like this like i thought holiness was um the same thing as spiritual maturity, or I thought it was perfection, like this human perfection of behavior. And like to understand that it is something completely different and something much deeper. that kind of feedback speaks to me i had a friend say to me she said sarah what's your goal with the book and i said it's to help people understand holiness and she was like i know i know she's also she was also writing a book she was like i i know i know well of course i want people to get something good out of my book but my goal is to be a new york times best-selling author and i'm not going to apologize for it and when i realized like we had different goals her goal is perfectly fine for her like my book when i realized that my book was already doing what i wanted it to do because i was using it in in meetings and devotional times with that i would lead and people were understanding holiness better i went you know what i don't think i need to wait to see if a publishing house will get like it's already doing its goal so i can just independently publish retain the control and trust that the lord will do with it what he will [Tom Pounder] That's awesome. You know, everyone's got a different reason to publish a book. You know, again, I remember a conversation I had with a very successful business guy and I said, you know, we were talking about his company and he said, Tom, there's two reasons why people start companies. One is to make an impact or the two is to get bought out and make money. And our job was to get bought out and make money. And we succeeded in our job. And so, again, everyone's got different goals for that. And I think that's awesome that you wrote that. I've had different thoughts in my mind about books before, and I've never proceeded through on that. And to hear someone be obedient, I like how you said that you felt like God put something on your heart and you were to be obedient. That's why you did it. I think that's awesome. How can people get it? Where can they find it? [Sarah Kinzer] Well, you can find it on Amazon. [Tom Pounder] yes i'm glad you said that that's good nobody has to go to all different sorts of places trying to figure out if it's carried there it's carried at amazon so is there a kindle version of it yeah oh i see that's where i i'm a kindle guy so i don't like to carry around a bunch of books but if i can get it on a kindle i i love it so and and the um the thing i'll tell you this tom if you want to write a book you should write a book because there's literally like [Sarah Kinzer] what is the worst that could happen you already haven't written a book yeah so if you try to write a book and you write a book like if you try to write a book and you quit writing the book you're not any worse than you already are but if you try to write a book and you write a book you've written a book like there's not a risk to this just do it if you want to write it just write it [Tom Pounder] That is awesome. Yeah. Okay, good. Thanks for the encouragement. Hey, so as we kind of wrap up here, if people want to connect with you, I'm going to include all your links in the show notes. So, but what's the best place for people to connect with you? [Sarah Kinzer] So if you want to find me on Twitter, you can, it's at Kenzer, K-I-N-Z-E-R underscore Sarah with an H. if you want to follow the the podcast where um you can find us on any of the podcast apps out there and you can find us on twitter at pocket underscore pulpit um and i'm also on instagram and facebook but that's like you know where i post pictures so my mom can see what my kids are doing and things like that there's there's some other stuff but mostly i'm most active on twitter um So I'd love for people to find me there. [Tom Pounder] Yeah, definitely go to Twitter, connect with her there, ask questions, start following her and start following the podcast. Again, I'll have all the show notes. I mean, I'll have all the links in the show notes so you can get her book and then follow the podcast and follow her. So Sarah, thanks so much for being with me today. [Sarah Kinzer] Sure. Thanks for having me. [Tom Pounder] All right, so it was great talking to Sarah. I had a great conversation with her. And again, even though geography-wise, we're an hour and a half away, I get to stay in touch with her on Twitter all the time. And again, I love that she uses Twitter to minister to people. And she's doing a great job of it. So if you're not following her, Make sure you follow her. I've got all her links in the show notes below. Make sure you check out her book as well. But I would love to hear your thoughts on it. What is she doing that encourages you? Or what is she not doing that you're possibly doing that you would want to recommend to us? Definitely put it in the comment section below. or hit me up on Twitter at TAPounder, or even talk to Sarah on Twitter as well. We would love to have this conversation continue online because we're all learning together, and we're all using Twitter as digital missionaries. So what are you doing, and how can I encourage other people? Again, let's continue this conversation on today. All right, heroes. Well, thanks so much for being with me today. As always, if you enjoyed the podcast, go and subscribe to this. It's on YouTube. It's on iTunes, Spotify. This is also at thechurch.digital. So go there and subscribe to this. I would love for you to stay up to date on all the latest and greatest things that are happening at thechurch.digital. All right, heroes. Well, I hope you have a great rest of your day, a great rest of your week. And until next time, have a great one.