From the Streets to the Harvest: How God Redeems Our Hardest Mistakes

Matthew URG: I used to make fun of my grandmother all the time because she was the person that always prayed for people. And she would always tell me, one of these days, you're going to end up doing the same thing. And here I am doing the same thing, just in a different space. But it's like, it's like, thanks, grandma. You spoke that over my life and you passed it on. But I find that like everything she taught me, I kind of now carry. And I don't, I didn't realize that. Like she was a woman that got up every morning. She spent two or three hours reading, praying. And I realized that that's what I do now. Control Alt Redeem is for anyone called to ministry in the digital frontier. Gamers, streamers, and everyday believers navigating life online. Each episode equips you to live on mission and the real stories of lives being changed. Reset your expectations, reframe your mission, and redeem the space you're already in. This is where digital ministry gets practical, creative, grounded, and hopeful. One episode at a time.

Flatcap: Welcome in, everyone, to Control Alt Redeem. We are resetting the culture and redeeming the space. And I have Matthew URG in the house. Welcome in, Matt. Good to see you. Good to see you. Hey, welcome in Faith Forge Gaming. DJ Rockin' Ron in the house. Good to see you. Blessings, my brother, and blessings to everyone in the chat. Happy midweek. Big Unk KB in the house. Awesome. Yeah, well, you know, that's where there's a certain set of things that usually is a problem. You're using meld, and a couple of us are like, I'm not familiar enough to tell you how to fix that if it's not the same issues that OBS has or that Twitch stream together has. But we're all good. We've got it. So let me just welcome everyone back in again. So welcome in, everyone, to Control Alt Redeem. We are resetting the culture and redeeming the space. And Matthew URG in the house tonight. Welcome in, Matt.

Flatcap: Thank you so much.

Matthew URG: I appreciate it.

Flatcap: Oh, man, this is going to be fun. One of the things I really, really love is being able to get together IRL and Matthew and I and DeMarquis, Bible with the Battles. We got together for coffee earlier this year, and that was pretty cool. Try to do that again. So it's one of those things where traveling in the same state and able to get together was a lot of fun. I wish it was longer. We'll have to plan something bigger next time.

Matthew URG: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Flatcap: Are you planning on going to HopeCon this year, Supersonic? I'm planning on still going to Reach Conference, and I'm looking to NCMS next year, and I'm going to plan on that. But HopeCon's just not going to happen this year, I don't think. You're not going there, Shriver, next year. Okay. Okay. And, yeah, this is one of the things that's just fantastic about, like, we're talking about IRL meetups and having some of these conferences with fellow Christian streamers, fellow Twitch streamers, to get together. HopeCon is really along the lines of a spiritual retreat that your church might hold. And so that's fantastic of getting to go deeper in your faith. The Reach Conference is really focused on streamer and streamer mentality and growing as a streamer and having your communities gather together with you when you get together for Reach Conference.

Flatcap: And so that's been a blast to be able to be there. So I'm excited about going again this year. And Nerd Culture Ministry Summit is broader in the sense it's not just gamers. It's nerds of all flavor, whether you are in-person, board gamers, if you're LARPers, whatever it is, we want to help you do that in your church and reach the nerds in your church and your local community as well as digitally. So they all have a different flavor, and so I love connecting in all of those spaces. Matt, are you thinking about or going to be trying to go to any of those conferences?

Matthew URG: Not this year. I think next year will be the year that I focus to try and go to some of those. I feel like this year was just like the year to kind of like build and connect with people and really kind of figure out like what streaming looks like for me. I feel like that's been the biggest challenge since starting last year.

Flatcap: Yeah, yeah. So I know we met through TCD, you know, doing some gathering and connecting together. But how did how did you get introduced to Twitch and decide to get started as a Twitch streamer?

Matthew URG: Yeah, I actually got introduced to Twitch probably back in 2019, 2020, because I'm a big WWE fan. And I would like to go over there and see some of the content creators do like live reactions to the events. And then I believe I had a friend in the area, they would do gaming events and they would stream on Twitch. And so I probably first got introduced around then, but didn't really spend a lot of time over on Twitch and probably like went on a break. And then it was probably 20, 25, mid to 25 that I ran into DeMarquis. Even though we live in the same city, we live like five minutes from each other. We ran into each other at someone's child's open house. And I was talking to them about that. I felt like the Lord was putting it on my heart to kind of do online ministry, but I didn't really know what that looked like. And he had shared a little bit about the church digital.

Matthew URG: And he was like, yeah, man, they got a bunch of stuff that you can look into. And so I looked into it and what he didn't know is I had been on the church digital's website like two nights before. That's because I didn't know you guys. Well, I was like, this ain't real. Like, who are these people? Like, is this legit? Or is this just like, like two or three people are just trying to make something seem like it's got going on, you know? So when he was telling me, I was like, oh, wow, this is pretty cool. And he was like, yeah, man, like people game, they do Bible studies, like it's endless possibilities. And so I think after a couple of days, I joined the Church Digital Discord. And I think like you responded immediately to me. And you're like, hey, if you're interested, like we got an EDM cohort coming up. And that was just kind of how it was.

Matthew URG: I was just like, OK, I guess I'm really doing this. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't know. I hadn't played games on like gaming in probably like 15 years. So like I was all in, like I went and bought an Xbox. I was like, let me make sure I got stuff for streaming. I was like, I know I don't have everything, but we're going to work with what we got. We're going to figure it out. And that's kind of just the stuff I kind of got connected with the Church Digital.

Flatcap: Oh, that's so cool. I love, I love, love, love those intersecting moments of things that just totally take you by surprise. Like I'm exploring, I'm checking out, I'm feeling a call. And then I run into someone that I know and they already know about the thing I just ran into. And then they point me in that direction around it. For me, I got on Twitch from a local pastor that had been talking about doing online ministry for several years and doing evangelism in VR space. And so I started watching him during COVID. And then he said, hey, you need to go check out the Church Digital, have this conversation with Jeff Reed. And I did. And I went, I don't know what that was about. And I'm like, I just, so I just went back to what I was, you know, already doing in Twitch. And then probably six months later, Mark Lux from Lux Digital Church, I always say Mark Lux because of Digital Church.

Flatcap: He said, you need to go talk to Jeff. And I'm like, okay, I missed something. I clearly missed something that was going on over there. And then it was probably a short time after that that DeMarquis and I jumped into a how to plant your digital church in nine weeks. And I was like, wow. So I went into it going, I'm not planting a digital church, but I'm going to steal a whole bunch of these ideas and use them with what I'm doing on Twitch. And then someone said, well, they knew my background that when I was in seminary, I thought I was going to be a church planter. They said, well, maybe this is God redeeming that and bringing it back. Oh, I better, I better approach this from God. I'm open if you tell me to plant a digital church, which he hasn't. He hasn't, he hasn't planned, planted that seed in me.

Flatcap: In fact, right now I'm in the process of interviewing for physical churches that I feel God is calling me back to go into a physical church to help them do hybrid ministry. So that they can not just be the church on Sunday, but be the church all week long. And so that's where I'm in that vein. And I just, I just had something that totally surprised me in the last month with the same kind of conversations and things. I don't want to spill that here because it's too new. I don't want to, I like, I don't want to put any names of churches or any of those things out there in case somebody does go check it out that I'm talking about them. But it was just like, wow, I didn't think of looking over here. And now all of a sudden the, like a denomination, not my own. And then it was like, okay, maybe I'm open to that.

Flatcap: And then today I got an email saying, someone in our church mentioned your name and we'd like to have a conversation with you. I'm like, whoa. Okay. I'm already in process with a couple other churches, but, but, you know, I'm just open. Like, I don't know what God has. I have, I have the right direction. I'm just waiting for the right location. And so I, that's, there's no better place to be. I don't think than that. Just like, I know I'm going to the land. You will show me. I just tell me when I'm there. Like I'm ready. I'm ready.

Matthew URG: Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, even when we started the EDM last year and I remember you sharing, I think it might've been halfway through you sharing. And you were like, if I can give you any advice that's as clear and simple is try different things. You might do something for a couple of weeks, maybe a little longer, see how it goes, try something else. And I think for me, I tried like three different things. I mean, like, I think when I started, because my background outside of ministry is marketing, branding, things like that, design. And so in my mind, I was coming in, like, I'm going to have everything looking nice. I'm going to have everything going, but it didn't work out that way. Like I came in thinking like, okay, I'm going to call it upper room gaming, what I'm doing, which is where I kind of got the URG in my username.

Matthew URG: And it seemed like I didn't really like that because I wasn't gaming as much. I kind of got into doing work streams. So I was like, well, that seems kind of like that doesn't align. And then just like having, like, when you don't have a gaming PC, you got limited technology, you have to learn how to navigate. And I just remember, like, I took a break in December of last year just to kind of figure out what do I really want to do. And I thought I was coming back in the new year with like, okay, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to call it this. And we started doing it. And people are just like not really engaging. They're like, we feel like you got two different things going on. And, like, you have you and then you have this other thing you're calling it. And I'm like, okay, I'm just thinking, like, people just don't understand. God, give it, like, give it some time.

Matthew URG: Like, help them understand, Lord. Like, that's what I'm thinking. And then one day I was just like, you know, I'm just going to strip everything away. It's just going to be me. It's not even though URG stuff is just going to be Matthew, whatever. And so I probably didn't have been doing that for about a month. And it just seems like people are more receptive of that because they feel like I've stripped everything away. And I think it's helped me, too, because coming from the background I come from, it kind of removes those expectations that I'm not trying to market or brand. I'm just here to share my story, hopefully encourage other people that know Jesus and help people that come in that don't know Jesus to know Jesus.

Matthew URG: So it's been really exciting, but it's been challenging because it's like, man, when Flatcap said it's going to take a couple of tries, I didn't think he met almost the whole year. But it really does because you have to find the type of people that come into your community. You know, and for me, like, I've had to hone in on kind of like, I kind of have like two different avatars in a sense. You know, like I have other Christian believers that come in that are looking to be encouraged. But what I found is I get a lot of people that come in that are struggling to believe in God or they don't believe in God. So it's like I have to learn how to kind of communicate and build community with just those two areas. And so it's been a learning curve, but it's been really, really fun.

Flatcap: Oh, man, that is that is such good stuff there. The and and yeah, when you do try stuff, I mean, the church is not good at let's experiment or let's beta test something. That is not the way the church thinks the church thinks it's got to be perfect. We've got to do all of the work ahead of time. And then you've got a marketing background, which is also the same way. We're going to do all of the upfront stuff. We're going to test this in a, you know, a testing market to see if it's resonating the way we want. And then we're going to launch this full scale operation like no, no, no digital space. You need to know the culture that you're in and gaming in particular. Yes, you can you can have some big names and you can have some branding, but you do that as you're going, because you as the genuine article is the thing that they are after.

Flatcap: And they're going to suss out all of the other stuff that you're you're putting on top. It's like I've had people, you know, come in with, you know, I've got the flat cap. I was like, is this the really this guy? Is he really that? And it's just like, yeah, that's that's really me. OK, this is not a persona. I didn't create it to come online. This is who I've been for for my ministry life. And, you know, claiming I and I always love claiming I got my first flat cap when I was in seventh grade. And I haven't looked back since, except it was really hard to get them, you know, back in the 80s. So it took it took until this century to really be able to flush out, you know, that I can be this and make this my, you know, my persona. But hats were always the thing. Hats were always a part of it.

Flatcap: It took going through as a kid, you know, having the cowboy hat or having the baseball cap, getting into middle school and and doing the bicycle hats. I don't know if anyone ever had as many bicycle hats as I did. I did those for a while. But it was like when I got to this style, it was like, I know I know I've arrived. I actually just just this past week, I'm working on getting cleaning up my house and getting rid of stuff I haven't used in a long time. I donated probably 30 baseball hats that people have given me over the years that I just collected or a sports team won the championship. So I wanted to rep the sports team. So I got I got the hat with the championship and probably wore it a half a dozen times. And then it sat on the shelf because it really wasn't my flavor. But, you know, it's being who you are is what's going to make you open.

Flatcap: And it is the connection that leads to community, because when they really connect with you, they're going to. So I love I love that you've done some experimenting. You found out that that that truly is an avenue to be in relationship with people is to be who you are.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. I found it like also telling my story as well helps you to kind of bridge that gap of connecting with people. And I found that I really have enjoyed that because I've been in ministry for 20 years, always serving behind the scenes, but not really wanting to like jump out in the front because it just it gets intimidating. You know, it's like I am the most probably shy, inverted person behind the scenes. Like if you take me to a conference, I'm the person sitting in the back, not talking to anybody. But you can get me on camera. I can usually hold a good conversation. I sometimes talk too much to what I tell people like, hey, mute me, shut me up, whatever you got to do. And so it's just like it's been a journey.

Matthew URG: And I think for me, like I just love sharing kind of my story, you know, where I came from, how I grew up and how God's kind of redeemed me and brought me into salvation to have a relationship and how that he can use anybody to tell their story and to just reach other people. And I found that that's what has really helped kind of build my small little community is people want to hear my story. They want to know like, hey, how did you get from A to B and how are you so confident? And I'm like, man, I am not that confident. I even before this podcast, I was in prayer for like 30, 40 minutes, like, Lord, just give me the words to say so I can just be me and not feel like I have to get on and try to get a persona that I'm not.

Matthew URG: Because I think so many times we forget, like people just want people to be them, you know, like people connect when you are just willing to be you and tell your story and the right people will come and connect with you.

Flatcap: Well, and the part of that, too, is when you are who you are, the people that only you can reach can find you and can connect with you. There are a lot of people I'm not going to connect with. And I've I've tried a couple of times over over the years of I'm going to try to do gaming. You know, I'm going to do this amount and devote to that. And it just doesn't gain traction. And then, you know, earlier this year, partly because I wanted people to know if you come on Mondays to TCD channel on Twitch, you'll find out when the podcast is happening the rest of the week. And I just didn't have anyone show up for for the gaming. And then it was like, do I keep doing this? Do I not do it? I might go back to it again. Actually, I know I will go back to it again. When when Gate Zero comes out, I am going to full on be gaming. I want to stream every moment. I want to defeat that game.

Flatcap: I am so ready for it. I, I, I, I'm one of the early backers. Like, I want to say maybe 30 months ago, I backed the game. It might it might be longer than that. And I'm just like waiting for this game to come out so that I can play it. But gaming used to be a thing that was really my life and what I did. And when a new game came out, spend 80 hours until I can defeat the game because I play long games that take 80 hours to defeat. I like the RPGs that are long and I like to do every, every side quest that you can to do things. But it's like, yeah, it doesn't work. I just keep coming back to what do I do? Yeah, I, I, I read God's word or I chat with friends. I'm good at those two things. And so that's where, that's where God just keeps going. Just, just stick to those things that you do best. And that's where you're going to connect with people.

Matthew URG: Yeah. I, I, you know, even with the gaming, it's like, I've gotten a rhythm to where I was like, okay, I'm going to game on Mondays, do a little devotional at the beginning. Then Wednesdays is going to be like a real more Bible study, then get to some gaming. And then I just recently switched from Fridays to Saturdays. I just randomly did a pop-up on a Saturday and it just outdid my Friday. And I'm like, okay, let me do another Saturday. How did it? Let me do another Saturday. I'm like, okay, Lord, like clearly Friday is not working for me. So we'll just move to Saturday. But I found in the last couple of weeks, like people really want the word and I've enjoyed like just having conversations with people and pulling up the Bible and sharing maybe a devotional, diving into that scripture, the passage, the context.

Matthew URG: And so I've enjoyed that and I feel like I'm starting to find kind of my rhythm with people within doing that is like people will listen to somebody reading the word, someone breaking it down by just be you. Like you don't have to come in thinking like you're a theologian. Like I'm probably the most unqualified person. Like I'm I'm from the streets. Like that's where I'm from. Like I don't have, you know, I went to Bible college for one year, which I'm grateful for. That's why I gave my life to the Lord. But after that, I just kind of got into other things. I was like, okay, I like this. I want to do this. And, you know, as I as long as I'm serving behind scenes, I don't need to be on the front line. Then here it is, like for the last five or six years, the Lord has just really put on my heart to do online ministry.

Matthew URG: And here I am meeting with pastors and elders in the church, pitching them all these grand ideas. Of course, me with my marketing background, I'm bringing full on presentations. I got logos. I got names. And every time they're like, this is great. So when are you going to start? And I would just say, yeah, I'm not sure. Like soon, soon, soon. And then it was just like I would never do it. And I remember at the end of 2024, I had been working for a big franchise company here in Michigan. And I remember there was a specific time where the like I felt like the Holy Spirit was convicting me. Like, okay, you either need to do this or I'm going to force your hand. And this isn't the first time I've been in this situation. So you would think for those of us that have been in that situation, we would think smarter and would learn. I did not learn. I did not learn.

Matthew URG: Not even a month or two later, I lose my job and have been without a job since then. And you're talking two years. But it took that for me to really get into doing streaming. And then it took even more this year just for me like, okay, Lord, I'm going to actually do what you want within the streaming, not kind of chicken out and put somebody else's sermon up. I'm, you know, I'm actually going to open the word, read it, read it, read it, read it, read it, do what you're asking me to do. So that's like the season where I'm at to where like I've really had to learn like obedience through surrendering and submitting. And I think that's really challenging when we kind of want to do things our own way or we think, okay, Lord, I'm going to pull a Jonah and do it my way. And it's like, but did you not read the whole story of Jonah? Like he did not win. Like it did not work out.

Matthew URG: So it's like I'm going through these different experiences and I'm sharing it with people because I'm like, don't pull a Jonah. Don't pull a Matthew. Don't do what I did because it's miserable. Like there's nothing fun about resisting the Lord. And it's like, I've had so many things that the Lord has done in my life that I still struggle, like being like, okay, Lord, even though you did all this, I'm struggling with obedience. And so that's the season I'm at, you know, like I tell people, like you would think after having a near death experience, dying, having an encounter with the Lord, that that would be enough for me to fully surrender. And it wasn't. And so it's like, that's just like kind of the stuff that I'm learning. Like, man.

Flatcap: But, but, but that's honest. And, and that's the way it is. You're right. We would, we all want to say, well, shouldn't you learn from your mistakes and not repeat them? But I'll tell you what, go to scripture because that's exactly what happens. Abraham, you know, tells his wife to pretend that you're, we're not married. You're just my sister. And she ends up with Pharaoh and that turns out not good, but he doesn't learn from that. He does it again. He pulls the same stunt with Melchizedek. And it's like, you know, you're my sister. Remember that you're just my sister. And then they're out there caressing. He's like, dude, dude, what are you doing? You said, no, this can't be true. Like if, like you would just like, if Abraham's walking with God, like God's showing up to him and having conversations. Like, like if he isn't, I'm going to say strong enough.

Flatcap: I'm not going to say not smart enough. I would say not strong enough to not fall into doing the same mistake multiple times. I have a lot, I feel a lot of grace for anybody else that also does it like, oh yeah, I, I should have learned. I should have known. I like, I, I also talk in this language of, of arguing with the Holy spirit because that's just how I process. And, and, and I want to argue with, to make sure I get it right. But there's also the level of, well, I'll show you, this isn't what I'm supposed to do. I'm going to like, it just never works out. Like, why don't you just listen the first time and, and just, you know, trust the Holy spirit to do what you're supposed to. Uh, it doesn't always, doesn't always work that way. But anyway, yeah, I, I, I love when people share their struggles. It, it is so good to hear that I'm not alone.

Flatcap: And in fact, what's really unfortunate is I have worked in churches where I got pulled aside for talking about struggles from the pulpit. Like you're the pastor. You're not supposed to struggle. Like, no, straight up. I struggle. If you've had other pastors who pretend that they don't, they're lying to you. And well, you have to be perfect. So everyone else can strive to be perfect. There ain't no one, but one perfect person that ever lived. And it wasn't even me for your second place. Okay. So, no, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to be straight up. I'm going to talk about things that I'm struggling with or have in the past. And, and, you know, I often would also not tell the end of the story where I got it right. I just tell the story where I got it wrong. And then I'd switch to somebody else who got it right and leave you, leave you going. Yeah, I straight up did it wrong.

Flatcap: Uh, and I'm trying to figure it out, but they didn't like that. They wanted their pastor on a pedestal, uh, to be perfect. And it's like, I am so glad to be in a digital age where people want the authenticity. They want things that are raw. They don't want all of the polish. And, and especially if you're live and when you're live, you get, you get all the mistakes of the sound and the tech and all of those things. Those people who are going to listen to this later, those, those one or two minutes at the beginning where we struggled, they're going to be cut off that get just a one or two minutes. Uh, they'll be cut, they'll be cut off and nobody will know what happened because we're trying to make it polished for those people who want to just listen later. And it's, but it's a live aspect that allows you to be a flawed person that can really connect with people.

Flatcap: So, uh, man, I, I, I, well, admitting that you've done it and admitting you've done it again and admitting you're still struggling to me, that just shows that you are striving to follow Jesus because we're supposed to be following Jesus, not arrived.

Matthew URG: Exactly. Yeah. That's the big thing.

Flatcap: As, as you have been doing that and, and we talked about getting started, was Twitch always the place you were going to do things or, cause you were saying first it was being called to do some digital ministry feeling that how, how has. your journey been around where, where do you reside in digital space and where are you showing up? And a lot of us also, you know, put our content out in other places afterwards. So what has been your culmination of this is where I've found or I've tried or where God's leading me. These are my people. What, what has been that journey for you?

Matthew URG: Yeah. I think Twitch is like been a big onboarding place and I am able to connect with a lot of people through discord. And I found that that is just the place where I stay connected to people daily is in my discord and even in other people's discord. And so I found that that has really been like, those are the two areas. I do not feel like I have been able to connect too much on social media, posting clips and stuff. It seems what works over there is just like generic stuff. Like I might post like a video where I'm sharing something or a personal testimony, but I just found it like Twitch and discord is like my, my real hot places, sometimes tick tock. But I think for me, I'm trying to narrow in on two places to build and grow. And then if I feel I want to expand, then I'll try it. But for me, it's just trying to stay in the two areas that I feel like I'm winning at right now.

Flatcap: I think that's wise. I know some people multi-stream in multiple places and I'm not, I'm not against that. Some people have a giftedness to allow them to do that. But I, I think on some level that if you have more places that you're going, you're watering it down and you're not really hitting the target as easily. So I target here on Twitch and then I post it elsewhere, but the target is the live people who are here now, the people, people listening later. I mean, go ahead and listen on double speed because that's, that's what I'm going to do or triple speed. I get that. You may wander over here or you may wander into discord. That's where I'll connect with you. Not where I'm posting the content other places.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I just find like, I said initially I was going to try and be everywhere. I was going to try and like stream on TikTok, be on Instagram, be on YouTube. And I just realized that that was not like, it was just too much. I was, I just knew I would stretch myself too much trying to do that. And I think also like, it's just knowing where you went at. And right now I feel like I'm winning on Twitch and I'm gaining a little bit in discord. There are people that went back and watched my VODs and came into my discord. Where I'm like, Hey, how would you find me? Like I live in the UK or I live in Brazil and you popped up and you know, I want to be a part of your community.

Matthew URG: And so that has been interesting to learn how to build out a discord, just having a small amount of people, but finding how to stay consistent in there and just having a lot of asynchronous content going on that I don't have to necessarily sit around and trying to post in there every day. There's just something always going for people to engage daily scriptures, daily devotionals, different resources that I have in specific areas for people to watch on like salvation, Holy spirit, just little things that I think will help them like in growing in their faith. If they're looking for something to grow in. So that's kind of what I found has been successful so far.

Flatcap: Wow. That's really cool. I, that's, I know there's a number of people that like, that's what they're looking for. They're, they're looking for that little encouragement. And, and that's fantastic that the algorithms are finding you and putting you in front of the people that need to, to, to find you and your content. It's always that level of, and we've talked about this before, a little bit before we got on, on stream of the, we're doing this. Am I doing the right thing? Do I keep doing this thing that I'm doing? Is, is it effective or not effective? I hold onto those stories of individual people. That's, that's how I can point to whether or not what I'm doing is making a difference. It goes back to when I was doing drama ministry and I was writing and directing and, and also acting and, and doing all that for my church.

Flatcap: And I would tell everyone who was doing it is they get nervous about this. And what if people don't like it? I go, it's not about if people like it. It is, we're doing this. If there is one person sitting there on Sunday and the message is for them, that's why we're doing this. We are, we are taking and connecting to the theme and sometimes the passage itself of, of what the pastor is bringing. And our job is to resonate and connect with one person that's going to open their eyes that the pastor's message may not connect with unless we do this. And, and so that's what we're doing for us for the one. And it's such, such a relief on that, that side of, I'm not doing this to have everyone clapping at the end of what I'm doing. It's if I'm here for one person that was worth it to be here today.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's why I do it. I mean, there's been times where I might not have a lot of people coming to stream live, but then maybe someone will say like, Hey, I went back and watched your VOD and that was really good. So for me, like I've learned, like if I just reach one person or two, I know I'm winning because I don't know the impact it can have. And that was challenging at first because you start wanting to look at your, like your views and how many live people. And it's like, hold on. I had a, and I still struggle with it. Like when I'm normally streaming, I normally have like my Twitch. Stream manager up and I'll peek in there and see how many people's like viewing, even though if they're not in the chat. And I've learned to stop doing that because I've learned that that impacts how I am communicating on stream with people.

Matthew URG: Because as I was saying, like, there's not a lot of people. So then it's like, I pull back and it's like, but I shouldn't pull back doing what I'm doing. Cause I'm doing it. If it's just one person, like there might be one person that just needs prayer or just needs to hear that God loves them. Like that's what my priority should be. So I've had to learn to not pull that up. But it's been tough because again, coming from marketing, it's hard to not want to pull that, you know, into what I'm doing. And I remember like when we first met, we were talking about it. You're like, yeah, but you got the branding and all that. You can do whatever you want. And it's like, I can, but I have to learn not to because for me, that's a weak area doing ministry in the digital space is not getting caught up in that because I've just been caught up in that before.

Matthew URG: Like just in regular church ministry where it's like all about the branding, all about the marketing, all the social media and all this. So it's like, I'm actually doing the opposite. Cause people were like, Hey, you're not like promoting on Instagram anymore. Like what's going on? I was like, yeah, you know, like if you want to find me, you can click the link in my bio. Like I'm not going to spend the time to create marketing pieces that probably maybe one person might click if nine, because that's not, that's not what I'm trying to do. Like I want to reach people in real time. And I just know that that's not where, like, I want to put my energy into.

Flatcap: Yeah. Well, and that's a very, a very real thing too, is the limited time you have, where can you put the most in to connect deeper, not connect wider? And I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm part of the church. So whatever I say, the church does this. I'm, I'm including, including myself in that when you're trying to be an attractional church and attract the person who is a non-believer, what you end up doing is having a shallow faith for everyone that's there because you never go deep. So you, so you either have to, and I, and I knew some churches who intentionally did this and I respected them for it. We are a church that's going to bring, bring people to Christ. And after you've been here a year or two, if you're, if you need to be growing in your faith, we're going to recommend the church down the road where we know you'll get fed.

Flatcap: But our, our job is to give, give you an introduction to Christ, to feed you milk. And when you need solid food, we, we help you to the next stage where you need to be. And I was like, wow, you know who you're called to and you know what you're trying to do and you're not deceiving yourself about it, which sometimes we get self-deluded about, well, we're doing this and that's enough. And it's everything else will just happen. No, not, not everything else will happen. You know, and no matter what organization you're with, if it's TCD, no matter if it's, you're an individual streamer, you cannot be all things to all people. I can approach things from, I want to be all, all things to all people as to win some, but at some point I'm going to miss other people as I, as I strive to do that.

Flatcap: So it's, it's just been a lot of trial and error at times and, and making mistakes and, and having ministry be messy, which I think actually in the long run ends up doing more for the kingdom, when you allow yourself to be messy and open about it instead of pretending to be perfect and then have a scandal happen because you were hiding everything that was bad under, under wraps. And now, now you're a blight to the name of Christ and your church is all in a PR, you know, mode to protect the reputation of the church rather than the reputation of Christ.

Matthew URG: Yeah. I think for me, like I definitely, you know, was a part of certain ministries. There's always trying to be the all for everybody.

Flatcap: Yeah.

Matthew URG: And it was just like, man, like we can't do that. Like we're not. And I grew up, you know, I've been across several different denominations over the years and I find that it's not a denominational issue. Sometimes it's just, it's that church culture issue that we want to be everything to everybody. And even with me, like I tell people, like, don't reach out to me for any type of pastoral counseling. I'm not a pastor and I'm not equipped in that area, but I will send you to the people that can help. Now I can pray for you. I can encourage you, but I can't give you anything beyond that because I'm just not equipped for that. And so I've had to learn to draw lines with people, not because anybody did anything bad, but just to make it clear, you know, and set boundaries and being in ministry and like being a minister and training in the past.

Matthew URG: And you learn a lot of things about how you engage with people, how you interact, leading discipleship groups. You learn how to kind of have conversations with people where they're at and learning that like everybody's journey is different. And I know for me, like my journey is very different from a lot of people. You know, I didn't grow up with parents. I grew up with a grandmother. I raised myself in the streets doing a lot of things that I should have never did. But I thank God that that was my journey because I wouldn't be who I am today. I tell people I'm the most like I'm like formal trained person, even with my associates in ministry degree. Like people wouldn't know that because they think I'm just a person from the streets. But like I just have a way that I communicate. And it's not I'm not the perfect communicator. I say, yeah, a lot instead of yes, or that's great.

Matthew URG: Like I just have a very different language that I speak because of where I came from. And I remember when I first went to Bible college, I got teased all the time because it was like, oh, you sound like a person from Detroit. Like, can you just speak English? And of course, in my mind, I'm thinking that's the most kind of like racist thing you could say because I know what you're inferring to, but like that's who I was. Like I wasn't trying to pretend to be anybody I wasn't. And so I tell people like, man, I am Old Testament with with Jesus in my heart. Like I will pull Old Testament. I will slay a giant and give Jesus the glory like that's just who I am. Not that I'm promoting violence, but that's just like my ideology of things that you're like, I know where I come from. I'm not ashamed of it. My story is my story.

Matthew URG: Yes, I am almost 40, not married because I have been a broken person for a long time. And my journey has taken longer to get healed, to get whole and to get to a place where I can do other things in life. And that's just that's just me. And that's OK.

Flatcap: Yeah. And unfortunately, I think a lot of people don't approach their relationship with Christ wholeheartedly on some level when they're not married. Their pursuits feel like I'm not a complete person. And I think the church has made a mistake in some areas here of, you know, I don't want to pick on any particular ministries, but there's plenty of ministries focused on family. And they're out there in various different places elevating how to be parents, elevating how to have a good marriage, elevating all those things. And I think those are all valuable things. But the church has often treated singles ministry as a place to help you find a spouse so that you can fix the problem of being single instead of saying you are wholeheartedly exactly who God has created you to be, whether you find a spouse or don't. And if you want to find one, we want to pray for that and come alongside of you.

Flatcap: But you're not incomplete until that happens. And if you follow God and it takes you longer than other people to get there, there's nothing wrong with you. And if you never get there, there's nothing wrong with you. And if you do get married and you don't have kids because of whatever reason, there's also not something wrong with you. And yet the unspoken posture of the church has often been, unless you're in one of those denominations that you have to be celibate to be a priest, the rest of us treat everyone who's not in ministry as there's something wrong on some level. If you're not married and you don't have kids, you are, you are a second class in the kingdom of God. And it's just, it's unfortunate. So yeah, I just want to resonate with you and say, if you're single, that's where you're supposed to be. It's not something wrong.

Flatcap: And I love how you're saying you're trying to get yourself together and get your relationship with Christ. And that should be the primary thing is being in the image of God, who you fully are. I, on the other hand, I'm, you know, I just celebrated 33 years of marriage. I wasn't incomplete without a wife. I just am a whole better person after having a wife. So she, she saw past all of the facade that, and that's how I always describe it. I had a facade on to protect myself from being hurt. And she was able to see past it and see my potential that nobody else could see past the facade that I was putting up. They're like, this guy, like nobody, nobody in high school or college would have picked me as a pastor. Let's just put it that way.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. I think I, you know, no one would have picked me to be doing this. I mean, when people saw after high school that I was at Bible college here, like, is this a joke? Like, like just to give some context, you know, because I keep talking about like how I grew up just to give people some context, I didn't grow up with my mom and dad in the same household. My dad, I didn't meet until I was 21, 22. And my mom was only in my life for about five to six years. So my grandmother was the only person that I had in the home. And it was like in church every Sunday in the morning at night, Wednesday night, then depending on the denomination, you have, you know, revival week in the fall, you got spring revival, you got, you know, it was always in church.

Matthew URG: And I think that's probably one of the only reasons why I'm as sane as I am and not like out here struggling and a lot of other areas that I could be. But yeah, just like not growing up with parents like that was a big challenge, even when I came to the Lord, because obviously, you know, I believe from a physical sense, like our earthly father is supposed to kind of be that spiritual, physical representation of our heavenly father. So when you don't have that, it's sometimes hard when you come to a relationship with the Lord or to even understand because you don't have that.

Matthew URG: And I think for me, like I had so many things growing up that I unfortunately experienced, you know, like I don't go into too much detail, but just experiencing SA from the ages of six until I was 15, 16, from teenage girls to teenage boys to married women, it does something to you to where you're not even sure who you are as a, as a person. And I think like, I'm so grateful that God never allowed me to go too far down. And there were seasons that I definitely went down and was dark before I became a believer. I remember, I think probably around seven years old that I tried to unalive myself and you people don't realize like when a child has been hurt and damaged, you never know how the enemy can try and get to them. And I am so grateful for a neighbor who jumped in and saved me because I wouldn't be here.

Matthew URG: But I know like, that's nothing but the enemy trying to stop me from what God knew ahead of time that he was calling me to do. So I always tell people like, you never know other people's journeys. And my journey doesn't mean that I'm better than anybody because people always say, oh, Matthew has this amazing testimony. Anybody that has found Jesus has a testimony and no one's testimony is more powerful than another. Me dying and going to heaven and being brought back to life doesn't mean I'm more called, more chosen than anybody else. That's just the journey that the Lord had me on because he had a bigger purpose outside of that.

Flatcap: Oh man, that is, that is quite, quite the testimony. And along those lines, if we just look at the prophets, the one called the Nineveh was Jonah. Jeremiah wasn't called to go to Nineveh. Jeremiah's whole ministry is a ministry of just anguish and constantly telling the people to do the right thing. And absolutely everyone's saying, well, we're going to do the opposite of what you say. We're going to, even what he's said up to this point is a hundred percent come true and people come to him and say, we want you to tell us exactly what God wants us to do. No matter what it is, we'll do it. And then he tells them what to do. And they're like, yeah, we're doing the opposite. Like you said, you would do like, so the, that journey is not my journey either.

Flatcap: And so the people who are in the, in the struggles that are similar to yours of, of being isolated, of being lonely, of having abuse upon them, have something in you to be able to connect with and say, wow, they, Matt over here is in a place I want to get to. And so I want to, I want to know what Matt has. What does Matt have? Matt has Jesus. That's what Matt has. That, that is, that is what Matt has. That's what makes Matt who he is and how he's been brought through is Jesus. Not Matt was, you know, just, you know, tough skinned and able to brush it off and go about life. And I, I love the, the bringing up the, yeah, even in the, the, the, the journey, it's not all upward from meeting Jesus. Right. There'll, there'll be plateaus and there'll be valleys and I've walked through them both and, but my story's totally different.

Flatcap: I mean, I, I don't come from the same kind of broken home you come from. I come from a, from a home that my parents got divorced and then neither one of them could be in the room with each other after that. And, and I've had to live my whole life between the, the, these things that it clouds relationships in all kinds of ways that I hate. Uh, and I, and, and that they're broken and, and I have broken relationships with my siblings. And it's like, I have better, and this is, this is no surprise to me because this is what the new Testament tells us is I have better relationships in the body of Christ than I have in my family.

Matthew URG: Ain't that the truth? Ain't that the truth? I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. Cause like I was raised only child. And then when I met my biological dad at 21, 22, I find out I have siblings. Not only do I find out I have siblings, I find out that all my cousins on my dad's side live within an hour of me and that we actually wrestled in high school. Our teams wrestled each other and we were all in the same room. I was in the same room with my dad and never would have known. And so it's like, you just never know. Like I have a biological sister that is the oldest that my dad had when he was stationed in Germany. How is it that over 4,000 miles away, however many miles it is, that she was able to find us through Facebook?

Matthew URG: Like to be able to find your biological family and you're in a whole nother country all because you found a picture of my middle or my older brother holding our youngest brother and you just happened to find a picture, look over and see a full name, go on Facebook one day and find us. It's like, there has to be something that God knows what he's doing. And even though everybody in my family are not believers, I can still say that I know there are things that God has orchestrated to bring people together that are in different places in the world and still have a beautiful connection. And I'm the same way, like not growing up with siblings and then trying to add siblings into your adult life. It can be challenging. I have an older brother that he's in his own world. He's like, I just don't, he's like, don't take it personal. I just don't want to add anybody to my life, you know?

Matthew URG: And I can't be mad at him for that, you know, like, who do we get, like, I can't be mad at him. Is it, do we get mad at the parents or do we just say, you know what, Lord, even though the situation led to maybe uncomfortable things, I'm grateful that I even got to connect with them because not everybody can say that there are people out there that have been given up for adoption. My youngest brother on my mom's side, he was giving up for adoption and I found him through MySpace and he's one of my best friends now. He's a believer, he's involved in ministry and it's just a blessing. You just never know, like, how God navigates family dynamics. And it's just a beautiful thing to know, like, yeah, I could complain and say, well, I didn't grow up with parents. I didn't have what I needed and, oh, I didn't have siblings. So because of this, I can't do this.

Matthew URG: So I don't, it's like, at some point, the Lord is like, you have to get over your feelings and your emotions and kind of like man up as a believer. Like, it doesn't mean that you don't have feelings and you don't have emotions because it's all human, but we have to know, like, the blessing in just having some of that, you know?

Flatcap: Oh, absolutely. I love, I'm just resonating with a lot of what you're saying there. And a lot of that just makes me reminded of Joseph's story where his brothers absolutely mean it for evil and it absolutely is evil what they did. And yet, and yet God turns the evil into a blessing and into something good. Um, you know, we could, we could dive into that story more, but I, I, I love that, that because man, that story just keeps going from bad to worse. Right. Right. You know, like it, it wasn't good. Your brothers hated you. And then your brothers throw you in a pit and then you're sold into slavery. And then, then you're chased out of the house and you're thrown in jail. And then you're, you're, you're starting to excel in jail and you have a way out and they forget about you. Like what else could have gone wrong?

Flatcap: You're like, I can't like you're at your red rock bottom and then you're still at rock bottom. Yeah. But I also, I also think one other thing that was happening through that process. And if you, if anyone's been in, you know, when I've gone through Genesis, I think Joseph is a punk little brat. Okay. Yeah. And I think that the journey he goes through and he finally humbles himself when he stands before Pharaoh and he says, I can't do this, but God can, God can interpret dreams. I can't. And here's what you ought to do. Go find a wise person to do this. He's not promoting himself. He's not trying to be elevated. He is just simply there to do the one thing Pharaoh asked him to do. And Pharaoh's like, oh yeah, you're the right person for the job. He allowed God to change the circumstance instead of trying to change it himself. Which is what it looked like.

Flatcap: He kept trying to do all the way along. I'll take care of it. I'll change this. He was always trusting in God, but it was always trying to do it his way.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always, I will argue with people. So that I say, you act like Joseph trying to tell his siblings, the dreams he had was a good thing. That was the most arrogant thing he did. Like there was nothing. They're like, oh yeah, he was so gifted. I'm like, no, he wasn't humble in anything. He was just trying to tell them about themselves and he got what he got. Obviously we know what they did was wrong, but it's like, you kind of put yourself in that situation because you decided to start it off very wrong thinking because you're the favorite, you know, that you just got everything. And it's funny because I felt like that with the things I've gone through that, like, I'm entitled from the Lord, you know? And it's like, okay, Lord, I'm entitled to this. I'm entitled to this amazing job and making good money. Okay. I'll give you the job.

Matthew URG: Let's see if you'll be obedient with ministry. Oh, you don't want to be obedient and do ministry. You want to keep making sure. Okay. I'm going to take your job away from me. Okay. You're still not doing what you're supposed to. Okay. I'm going to let you go without a job for two years. Like, that's where I'm at. Like no job, no money. Everything's in the hole. Don't know I'm going to pay rent, but it's like the more that I surrender to the Lord and keep moving forward. It's like small things start to happen. And then it's like, I'm crying out to the Lord, bawling my eyes out. And it's like, okay, Lord, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And it's like, but are you really sorry? Because this is like the 30th time we've been around this and I'm not sure.

Matthew URG: And so I feel like for me, the Lord has allowed me to kind of experience this season to really see where my heart is at to really be like, okay, you know what, Lord? Yes, I gave you my life when I was 18, but I don't surrender and submit to you daily. And I think we struggle to do that as believers. We get comfortable because we have a home to wake up in. We have a car to drive. We have food on the table. It's like, we just sometimes are not grateful and thankful for the things we do have that we lose sight of that. And I lost sight of that. I had a good, nice paying job, comfortable, could have went and bought probably two brand new cars for just to do it. But I kept saying no to doing ministry. And it was just like, okay, when am I going to say yes? Then it's like, I lose the job. I say yes last year. And I'll say, okay, everything's going to work out.

Matthew URG: And then it looks like, but you're really not sacrificing what you need to. And I'm like, what do you want, Lord? Like, I'm giving you everything that I think you want. So then earlier this year, the Lord really spoke to me about fasting. And so I started fasting. And then it was like, okay, Lord, I'm going to discipline myself to eat healthier, to do better. Then it was like, the Lord said, okay, I want you to give up everything, TV, Netflix, everything. So I have given up all that over the last couple of months. Even when I'm looking for a job and doing stuff, I literally wake up. I spend my mornings three or four hours in the Word. I don't text nobody. I don't do anything before I spend time with them.

Matthew URG: And even in this season that has been so, so hard for me, I have found it, though, spiritually more rewarding and more joy than I've had in a long time, as much joy when I first came to the Lord. So it's like, Lord, if you have to keep me in a broken sense for me to stay humble, to serve you, then I will accept that. But I know that it's a growth lesson because you need me to learn the lesson that you were trying to teach me all along. And I didn't want to listen. I had men of God try and share stuff when I didn't want to listen. And then it's like you get in this and you start streaming and you think you got it figured out. You don't. And it's like, I don't have a clue. And I remember earlier this year, I was thinking of the conversation that we had had in EDM. And you were like, yeah, you know, like, don't get set on doing one thing. Don't think you are going to just do it.

Matthew URG: And it's just going to work magically and everything is going to be fine. And I think, like, once I learned that, like, it really allowed me to really, like, strip away and just be me, tell my story, be intentional. You know, anytime I have someone new come into my stream, I pull up the picture of me being on Life Support. I tell them, like, hey, this is where the Lord brought me out of, but this is just the beginning. And I always use it as an opportunity to share my story, to bring people in. Because a lot of times I think it's easy for us from the church sense. We just want to give people scripture and we just want to preach at them or talk at them. But we don't want to have a conversation with them. And I found people are way more receptive having a conversation. Like, when I gave my life to the Lord, I'm at Bible College.

Matthew URG: Who would have thought going to Bible College, you would assume someone already believes in the Lord. But I didn't. It was just, I didn't. But I get there and we have this big worship event. And I come from a specific church within a denomination. We don't lift our hands in worship. So I'm there and everybody's lifting their hands in worship. And I'm like, what are y'all doing? Like, that's weird. And then they're like, oh, it's just a sign of surrender. It doesn't mean anything. Like, we just do it as a sign of surrender in worship. You don't have to. And I just start, like, I lift my hands here. And one side, I just start bawling. And I'm like, what? I'm like, what is going on? And they're like, are you okay? And I'm like, no, I don't know what's going on. They're like, that's the Holy Spirit probably ministering to you, drawing you. And I'm like, I've never felt this before.

Matthew URG: So then I go back to my door room that night. And I just, like, I could not sleep. Like, I'm just tossing and turning for, like, two or three hours. And I just feel like the Holy Spirit, like, that inner voice saying, like, I'm calling you because you never knew me. And I remember getting up and knocking on my RA's door, and he opened the door, and he said, I've been waiting for you, but I didn't know it was you. And he said the Lord had told him to, he said the Lord had kept telling him to stay up because someone was going to come knock on his door and give their life to the Lord. And he didn't know who it was going to be. So when it was me, he was like, I didn't know it was going to be you. And what I love what he did is he didn't just make me say some sinner's prayer that can be very traditional in certain denominations and movements.

Matthew URG: He just had me open the Word of God and kind of go through different scripture and ask me, like, what do you think that means to you? And what does that mean for you right now? And that's how I came to the Lord. Like, I just said, like, Lord, I give you my life. I am sorry for the things I've done. And I've realized that I am an imperfect person that is very broken, that I need you not just today, but I need you every day moving forward. And whatever you want from me, I'll say yes. And that was kind of my start of giving my life to the Lord.

Flatcap: Yeah, that's really cool. I love those moments like that where he's being obedient, you're being obedient, and neither one of you know that you're going to interact with each other until God brings you together. And man, what a wise, wise thing to not just say, repeat these words after me, because then you could have come away with it thinking, I did the thing I'm supposed to do. Now I can go back to life. Right, exactly. I'll get this Holy Spirit off my back. Right. I don't have to change. I don't have to do anything. I don't have to live following Jesus. I just said the magic words, and I can go about life. And I just love that. And there's some people who will, as a pastor, want me to do altar calls, and I don't do them. I want to have a relationship with a person. I don't want to have a moment of them saying something.

Flatcap: I want them pursuing Jesus, not coming to me and saying, well, I did the magic words, and now I'm in the kingdom. I bought my fire insurance, so I get out of hell free card. No, I want them to have a changed life, and I want the changed life to impact them in a way that they know that Jesus is the one they're following. So what a wise, and not all RAs would be wise enough to do that. That's really cool.

Matthew URG: Yeah. You know, it was very different, but I knew it was so pure because there was other times where I would just say a prayer. And I just knew that never meant anything to me because I didn't understand what I was saying. I was just told to say something. You know, and I remember, like, it was so controversial when I would tell people, like, I gave my life to the Lord. They're like, what? Like, you got baptized when you were little. Like, you can't, like, I'm like, none of that meant nothing to me. And they're like, but you said a prayer, and I know this is where I'm going to say it's very controversial in denominations. A prayer does not mean anything. It's a life transformed through a commitment to the Lord. Like, that might be a starting point, but that can't be the start and the ending.

Flatcap: Yeah.

Matthew URG: And, you know, and I think that's where we struggle.

Flatcap: Yeah, I think that right there is a key. For many different people, that is the start of the beginning. It is. Yeah. We had you say the prayer, we are done. And Jesus called us to make disciples. Right. And discipling people is an ongoing action and activity that requires a relationship. And if all you are is I got my check box because I got you to say a prayer or I got you baptized, boom, we're done. It's not what we're about. It is helping people be transformed into the image of Christ and having a relationship of being a disciple of Christ, following Christ, which, oh, my goodness, this is one of the things I really love about digital. I don't just see a person on Sunday and they're just listening to my message and they go away. I have ongoing connection with people throughout the week.

Flatcap: I have interactions with people that are ongoing, not all at the same level, not all the same, same intensity. And then there's seasons of that. Man, I was just having some conversations about some people I have not been engaged with this year and some that it's probably been about 18 months since I've been, you know, engaged with their life has changed. Mine has as well. But four years ago, we were every other week having having two and three hour conversations with each other, helping to disciple them. Now they've moved out into living their life, following Jesus. And I'm not the only piece of it. And it's so, so wonderful to watch someone move into pursuing Jesus more than just showing up on Sunday for a worship service.

Matthew URG: Yeah, I mean, I've been a part of a house church for the last six or seven years. And so it's been very different from regular church. And, you know, we get together, we have food and fellowship before we start. We kind of follow kind of like the model of like an international house of prayer style where you have worship. Someone might get up and pray or declare scripture. Then someone will get up and, you know, teach at some point. But we don't invite people really because we're like more of like a hub house church. And we have people that come that are leaders at other churches. But we're just trying to get together to build each other up, to fellowship, to do life together. And I always tell people, like, my job is not to save souls. If you ask me how many people I've brought to the Lord, I will always say none because it's not my job. Yeah.

Matthew URG: You know, and people I've had pastors get married like, well, what do you think Matthew 28, you know, 18 through 20 says?

Flatcap: Make disciples.

Matthew URG: It's not talking about discipleship. It's not talking about getting someone to say a prayer or to come to an altar. Like, that's just like, and I'm not doubting anybody that does that. I think everybody does it. They feel bad based on where they're at. So I'll make sure we are not attacking anybody. Oh, absolutely.

Flatcap: I'm glad you're making the point. Because I hope nobody feels like we're attacking them. We are clarifying that we think it's bigger than that single moment. We think that the call is very serious and that it is an ongoing call that we are in relationship. And that is nothing against evangelists or evangelist crusades. Because I know Billy Graham did a really, or really strove to have local congregations ready to follow up with anyone from a crusade. So it wasn't a just come into town, get people to say something, and move out and count them all as saved, and they have no follow up. They worked really hard to have follow up. So that's all we're saying is follow up is what is necessary regardless of your approach. Follow up with people, being alongside of them, and connecting them. The journey has only started. And I love it. Yeah, the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict men.

Flatcap: It is not my job to convict you. It's the Holy Spirit that's going to do that work. My job is to love my neighbor as myself. My job is to make disciples. That's what I'm called to do.

Matthew URG: Yeah. And, you know, I think Billy Graham said something a lot of the lines. He's like, it's not my job to convict. It's the Holy Spirit. It's my job to lead them. And what I say or something like he has a famous quote that's similar to that. But I always think about that because I think so many times, like, when I was in a regular more church style, you're looking for people to come forward. And I remember, like, when the church was always part of, they were very big on someone needs to follow up with these individuals at the altar because it cannot stop there. We can't let them just say, we're going to have someone reach out to you later. No, there needs to be an immediate connection, not just filling out a connect card. That's great and all. But, like, spend some time with them afterwards.

Matthew URG: You know, get to know them for a few minutes before you, like, send them, you know, home that day, but, like, make it intentional. And I think that's what I care about, even with streaming, is I try to get to know the people that come in my community. I try to make sure there's people in my community that are struggling with not believing in God. And so I've had to make it very high point to tell people, like, don't attack them when they come in because we want to give them grace to share where they're at. And there was an individual that came in that was struggling to believe, didn't know if he would come back, was very clear he didn't know, and he came back. And he said, I came back because just the way you handled yourself. You know, he kind of said it in that way.

Matthew URG: But he said, I just, you didn't judge me, you didn't bash me, you weren't just throwing scripture at me, you were engaging with me, you haven't covered. And I think that's really what we have to do, whether it's in person or whether it is digitally. And I think that's what true discipleship is. I got discipled. I was at a church. They had rules. If you want to be a leader, you have to go through a whole year of discipleship. Then after that, you have to then do group discipleship with other men to build that community. You get the one-on-one discipleship, then you get the group discipleship. Then if you still want to be a leader, we're going to let you go lead a discipleship group. So I learned how to do things wrong, a lot of things wrong, trying to lead a discipleship group. And it was rough. I tell you what, it was rough.

Matthew URG: Like, asking people for feedback, and all they give you is a couple words, basically saying, it's too repetitive, don't know why we're doing this. And in my mind, like, the old man is like, well, then why are you showing up? Like, if it, like, you know, and I'd have to, like, almost, like, beg them to, like, give me what they really, like, feel like they're missing.

Flatcap: Yeah.

Matthew URG: You know, and what I think they were trying to communicate is we don't feel the connection. You know, like, we want the connection. Like, you're giving us information, but we don't have the connection. And it's like, wow, when you look at what Jesus did, he built relationships, then he brought in the discipleship. And it's like, man, Lord, like, help me to not be that person again. You know, like, and so that's why I try to be intentional when I engage with people on stream. And if people, you know, reach out or send a message because you don't know where people are at. One, you're dealing with someone that you don't get to see them. Like, you and I are talking, you know, visually. So you don't know where that person's at. You don't know what they're going through. And you got to take time to kind of listen through what they're saying in a little chat.

Flatcap: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Matthew URG: You know, try to figure out if what I'm saying is right.

Flatcap: Yeah, you start to if you're coming from the approach and this is how I'm describing it, which is what you're talking about. Having them belong before they believe when you're coming from that approach. You're not assuming everyone is a troll coming in to attack you. So you don't assume the thing they say is an attack and they're trying to rile you up. You can say they don't understand and they're trying their hardest to ask a legitimate question as they see it. It's up to me to help them word the question well enough now so that we can have a conversation. But if I if I'm thinking, oh, no, this I'm a Christian and they're not and they're they're just coming in and they don't want to listen to the gospel. Well, I could just shut them down and send them away. No, I want them to know I care about them from from the beginning.

Matthew URG: Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's one thing that's been my biggest learned lesson being in other streams and seeing some people maybe react a little different and decide, OK, I don't want to do it like that person. I want to, you know, show a little more grace, be a little more soft and inviting. But I understand, you know, different people have different ways of doing things. And sometimes, you know, we all just, you know, we're imperfect people. And sometimes we just have those moments.

Flatcap: Oh, and it's not to say that there are people don't come in and they need to protect themselves and they need to protect their community. And and so they their lines are harder and firmer. And maybe it's because of their personality or their skill set. And that's OK, as long as they're not abusing and mistreating people. Right. They're just like, this is our rule. Sorry, you broke it. You're we're going to ban you. You know, and you do it with a little bit of a little bit of grace. You know, you can you can put the line wherever you want. Right. I, on the other hand, love the gray area. And I'm going to just keep assuming the best until you prove to me that you are actually a troll. Right. Right. Which which I also find, too, is really a helpful approach when you have people that English is a second language because they're struggling to write in English.

Flatcap: And they're misspeaking from a cultural standpoint, also in the way they're saying things. And other people in the chat don't always pick up on those nuances. Right. And they're like, this guy is this woman. They're they're attack. No, no, no. They just don't know how to word the question that they're struggling with or the problems that they're they're going over or those things. You were you were mentioning a little bit about the person coming in and your grace and experience and doing that. Was there any follow up past that? Have they come back again since?

Matthew URG: Yeah, they came back since. And so I'm just, you know, seeing, you know, will they come back a third time? You know, will they come back and interact and engage? And it's not like they engaged even more the second time than they did the first time, because initially the first time they're like, oh, we're probably just going to hang out in the background, lurk and then leave. But they end up letting me know, like, hey, I stayed and listened to everything. And I was just doing a Bible study and I wasn't really expecting them. But they just said, like, they appreciate my approach in the way that I was communicating. And so I just really tried to not. And that was just recently within the past week. So it's like, OK, Lord, that's a sweet spot that I want to remember. And it might not be like that all the time, but that is something to consider. Like, hey, it worked here.

Matthew URG: I think I had someone that was from Brazil that came in the other day and they ended up joining the Discord. And it was just they're like, I'm a new believer and I need to be connected. And I'm like, hey, join my Discord. We got a lot of resources. You can tap into anything, anytime you want. You don't have to feel pressure. If you want to reach out, you can. And so that's really what I am trying to do is to make sure that I can connect people to the right spaces and places if I have to. Because I just don't have everything. I don't I can't be all to end all for everybody.

Flatcap: Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. And Will Pog going. Brazil mentioned. Yeah. Do you know Will Pog? I don't think so. Oh, OK. OK. Will Pog is from Brazil. So excited to have Brazil mentioned there. Welcome in. Welcome in. That's so weird. First time chat. How are you first time chat? You've been on the podcast before.

Matthew URG: Probably because of a shared chat. So it's probably picking up from me. Oh. You know, because it's a shared chat. So that might be.

Flatcap: Maybe. Maybe. That's just weird. Anyway, I was going to say, you know, we've talked a little bit about struggles and we can come back to that, you know, if there's something else that we missed on or we want to circle back to. But you started to talk about some blessings that you have been or some bright spots. Do you have two or three, you know, stories that you can tell of in your time, something that has blessed you from being in Twitch and being a streamer or someone in your community, whether it's Discord or Twitch, that you have a story that's like, this is what was going on before. Here's what happened either with me or in stream. And then and then what what happened afterwards? Do you have any of those stories? One for me, one for yourself, one for someone in stream.

Matthew URG: Yeah, I would say one for myself is just the support from other Christian streamers. That has been the big thing. Like I've had people connect with me and reach out and be able to build relationships with some of them, even outside of streaming. You know, we will connect in Discord, jump on a video or a voice call and just get to know each other for a couple hours and pray for each other and get to learn about each other. And that's been the biggest blessing. It's been a couple of different individuals I've gotten to do that with and we stay in contact. And it's been such a blessing like that for me is like that's the icing on the cake for me.

Flatcap: Well, I was listening to Jeff on the podcast earlier and the phrase that I've heard it said before. I don't know who said it first, but if you want to go fast or if you want to go far, go alone. If you want to build something that will last, go with others. Being isolated and alone is easy to do in digital spaces, but having others with you is also easy to do in digital spaces. And I love that you're making some connections that are going outside of the digital spaces as well and overflowing in those regards. That is definitely a blessing.

Matthew URG: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say another or kind of outside of that is it's still kind of in line. So I don't know if it answers the second question, but it kind of I would say like when I started picking traction up with streaming, I was getting some trolls and it was it was pretty intense. And I remember Big Unk KB, shout out to him. He would start his stream off in the morning and just encourage me like he would come on and just like, yo, Beth, y'all want to talk to you real quick. And he would just take, you know, a quick couple of minutes just to encourage me and tell me like, man, listen, you're doing your thing. Don't, you know, don't worry about the trolls like you held your ground. And I felt like to me that was like a win, like just from a support, but also like I wouldn't even call it a win for myself.

Matthew URG: I call it a win for Big Unk because he was able to use his time to support somebody else. And he does it with a lot of people all the time. But to me, that was encouraging. And so that's why I have borrowed from that. And I try to encourage people that come in my stream. And I, you know, I shout people out. I encourage them. And I try to be intentional. I'm not perfect at it. Sometimes I miss somebody. But that has helped me to turn what I'm doing into being intentional. Not just intentional with reading. Not just intentional with making sure I'm talking to chat. But really engaging with people in chat. So that's kind of like the second big win, I would say, is a win.

Flatcap: Oh, man, that is so good. And it was mentioned in there in the chat as well of Faith Forge Gaming. Agree, enjoy getting to know other Christian streamers. And the fellowship of the body of many of us, and I would say most of us, not all. I can't say that exclusively because I hear stories from other people. I haven't felt it myself, but the other Christian streamers coming alongside to encourage other Christian streamers when they see what's going on. Helping to, you know, be that encouragement to, especially though, if we've been in it longer, to say we've gone through it. We understand, we want you to know you're not alone. You know, you're, I don't know if you could, you probably can't see it. But back here, I have a target. It's on the side of my hats there. And it was one of the things that Chuck Swindoll, I went to Dallas Theological Seminary.

Flatcap: Chuck Swindoll would preach the first week of chapel every semester, the exact same message, and tell you, if this is your first semester here, you have just raised your hand. Satan's paying attention to you, and there's a target on your back, and things are going to happen. And we've all faced those when we've said yes to being a Twitch streamer or a digital ministry person. And as we've done that, we sometimes are attacked from the church. We sometimes are attacked from the trolls who are easy targets, you know, for them to get a good laugh or, you know, with their buddies or whatever else it might be. But to watch how the church, and especially the Twitch streaming community, comes alongside and says, no, no, no, I'm going to stand here with you and not let you take all the slings and arrows. You're not alone. You're not trying to figure this out.

Flatcap: How can I help you to be able to figure out what you don't know so that you can move forward, you can have things more established, you can be better? Anybody that's listened to this, go back and just listen to all of the other podcasts of the other streamers. I mean, the stories are all unique, but the experiences follow some very similar patterns of the doubt, of the struggle, of the blessings. We have both sides of those things where we, at times, we sometimes think we're alone, but that's only when we just focus on ourself. And the reality is, man, I could watch, well, I couldn't watch. I don't have enough time to watch everybody that I know. I don't have enough time to watch everybody that's been on my podcast. It's a growing community, which I'm so happy to see.

Flatcap: If you come to my morning stream, I don't do it here because I'm not usually on at 1002, but I stream reading the Bible and we get to 1002 and I pray for more workers for the harvest in digital spaces. Like, it's what I do. We're praying for that. And I'm watching it happen and I keep seeing it happen and God is doing it. And so therein lies joy for those of us further down the road is there are more workers for the harvest. We're not alone. Now, we still need a whole lot more, but you're going to bless others coming behind you that I will never know. And so to have Big Unk, and if you don't know Big Unk's story, go back and listen to that podcast of where he was and what he was doing before God reached down and got a hold of him and said, you need to be doing this for me, buddy. And then, boom, what God is doing in and through him. What a joy.

Flatcap: What a joy to have him around in the digital space and watch what God's doing.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. That's the big thing that I've learned that I've tried to been intentional is connecting with different people. It wasn't really my intention in the beginning because I was like, well, I got my few core people and I'm just going to do my own thing. And then now that I'm kind of getting traction, it's like, okay, I need different people in my corner. So I've been spending the last couple of weeks meeting with people and saying like, hey, would you be in my corner as accountability? You know, if I'm out here saying anything ridiculous, like please rebuke me, correct me. But also to just be encouragement because not that I don't have support from the local body because they're 100% behind me. But there is a different level of spiritual warfare on this side than you have when you're in the church.

Matthew URG: Like the warfare I had when I was serving in the local body and ministry, not to say that what is worse or more intense, but it's just at a different level digitally because you're out in the world, you know, like people can see you. They can say things and it's just that has been the biggest adjustment, you know, that I have to keep my composure when I say things, when someone might send something that's, you know, not very nice or to make blanket statements that really, you know, they might be a troll, they might not. So those are the things that I've been in this season, like learning, like really building my community and understanding that you can be connected to a lot of people and just have a few core people that like help like guide you. And that's what I'm learning because I'm, you know, in a season of transitioning from a local body to another local body.

Matthew URG: And it's like, okay, I need to be somewhere where there's a lot more men around because I'm in a smaller body. There's not a lot of men and I want to, in a sense, spiritually be kind of fathered because I think there's certain elements that I've missed. And I crave that, you know, especially doing ministry. I need that, you know, you need certain things as a man that you're, you know, develop and can help you grow and challenge you. And so it's just a lot. I'm like in the biggest transitional season of my life. You know, I feel like the Lord's challenged me to do streaming more than less. And I'm like, but Lord, he's like, hold on. You said yes. And one thing I've learned is when you study anybody in the Bible that said yes to the Lord, there's always an ask after the yes. It's the ask that we always have a problem with. And that's where I'm at.

Flatcap: Just to go back, talking about your supporters, do you have a group, and it doesn't have to be the label you use. I'm just going to use this label of a prayer team that you share the struggles and the requests with them so that they are your encouragers. They know what's going on, but they're also lifting you up to God in prayer.

Matthew URG: Maybe like one or two people, but not like a specific like core group of people, you know.

Flatcap: Yeah. And I know many streamers might have that, you know, especially if you're looking for financial supporters. I just started that last year of putting together a core team that is just my prayer team. I'm asking, I tell you what's going on. I tell you some highs. I tell you some lows. I try to put out a monthly newsletter to that group and update and maybe it's six weeks, you know, at times. But I am finding I feel a lot more supported on some level, not because they're always reaching out and telling me that they're doing things, but because I see that there's that many people that open up the newsletter when it went out that I know that they are people who love me and they believe that God has called me. So, I mean, this isn't something I've been, you know, talking about with other streamers. I'm just feeling like, you know, maybe it's time to emphasize that aspect of it.

Flatcap: So, and partly I've really felt that as I'm in this season of transitioning to, okay, God, you're calling me to go back to a physical church. I've been doing digital ministry for the past five years. I've been doing digital ministry all the way along when I've been doing, you know, when I was doing stuff in a church and it's like, I could not have made this transition and feel so confident in moving in the right direction. And then trusting the process to take as long as it takes. If I didn't know that I had this group of people that are praying for me, like, yeah, as I go and I do an interview and I'm like, is this the one? And then they call back and go, you're not, you're not it, buddy. I'm like, okay, next, next up, you know, like, like, I know I'm going the right direction.

Flatcap: You've confirmed that because as soon as I said that I'm going to do this, I had two churches who gave me interviews within two weeks. And like, that's, that is not how this happens. I've, I've done, I have done a lot of, you know, go apply at a church. You don't, you don't give them your information. And within two weeks have two interviews at two churches. It doesn't happen. Both of those churches have, you know, moved on and, and, and it was wonderful experience getting to know them. And, and I'm continuing that process was like, I just hope by the end of the year would be, would be lovely for that to happen. I'm, I have not had a paycheck income from, from a job in three years. So, or by the end of the year, it'll be, it'll be three years. Thankfully, my wife does, but it, it, the economy, the way it is impacting my kids, impacting, you know, parents, uh, impacting me.

Flatcap: It's tight at times. It really is. And, uh, you know, the blessing of, of here and there being able to, you know, I'm doing pulpit supply, you know, that not a great paycheck, I'm telling you, but, uh, it's better than zero. And, uh, and, uh, you know, the blessing, like your, your perspective on things can change when you really need it. You know, someone comes in and drops five subs and you're just like, this is amazing. I, I, cause I can count how much that's going to help this month. That'll make a difference when I, when I get the, the Twitch income, not that it's anything to write home about. I'm not a big streamer, but small things add up. And those small things fill in the holes that I don't have another way to fill the holes in.

Flatcap: And, and so it's just, it's just really like I was just to go back to my point, the prayer team, the support team, the encouragement team, whatever level you need it.

Matthew URG: Yeah.

Flatcap: Build it. You, you mentioned accountability. You need an accountability, build the team that you can have accountability with. Uh, if you need prayer support, build the team, you can have prayer support. You need financial support, build the team that will help you have financial support. Like, don't be afraid to ask people. If people love you and they see that God's called you, they can join your team in one of those capacities. Maybe it's not the one you initially hoped they would, but they offer them then another option. Because if they care about you and God, God has opened their eyes to see he's called you, even if they don't, like, they don't understand digital ministry, they don't understand gaming. They, they can't really believe that there's real relationships built unless you're in person. They can still trust God to see that God's using you to say, I'll be on your team.

Flatcap: And when they finally have their eyes open, they're going to be a really big supporter of, of what God has already done.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's so good because that stuff that like, I was going to reach out and ask you, you know, like different things, like, Hey, what should I do here? I'm thinking about this. Like, and it's crazy because like, I remember you told me anytime I could reach out. Yeah. I've never reached out in this whole year. And I'm like, I'm like, if I would have reached out, I probably would have saved myself some trouble. But I, you know, my man pride in my ego, thank you, you know, everything. And then you realize I don't know everything, but you know, it, it's, you know, I don't regret it because like, I've been able to learn things the hard way that probably I needed to. I tell people like, I'm the child that always learns the hard way. So I just, I think it's just easy to kind of sometimes be stubborn and just say, this is just how I learned.

Matthew URG: And my grandma used to say like, I don't know why you're so stubborn. And she'd be like, you're worse than any of my own children. And I said, I don't know what to tell you. I was like, there's just the way I never want to say I was wired that way. But I think when you grow up a certain way, you develop, like you're so independent that you just want to be able to do everything on your own. And that's where like the Lord is breaking me, like having to have a conversation with my current body and be like, hey, I'm transitioning because God is calling me to do more full-time ministry through streaming. And I need to be in another place that has maybe a little bit better ability for me to be flexible and serving to where I don't have to give six hours on a Sunday when I just streamed last night for two or three hours.

Matthew URG: And I'm really like, I'm just exhausted and I just need to come in and maybe set up a few chairs, greet a couple of people and get fed, but also have other men around that can encourage me as well. So, so I'm learning to just kind of let go of myself, you know, and like, really like, okay, Lord, I'm giving it to you. And it's like, are you really, okay, maybe this time. Okay. Now this time.

Flatcap: Yeah. Oh, I don't know if you, you saw, we just got a rated by the lounge podcast. Awesome. Awesome. Welcome in. I don't know you. So, so glad you decided to come in. Pineapple GG. Jesus is King. Amen to that. And the lounge podcast. Love y'all. Thank you for coming in friends. Those who are coming in who do not know me. I am a Flatcap Dapper Pastor. I have my own channel here on the church digital. I do podcasts with fellow Twitch streamers that God is using in the space. And we chat with them about how they got started, what God's been up to, the blessings, the, the struggles, all of those things. Get to know them, get to share their story of what God has been up to. And we have a Matthew URG. So Matt, if you want to just welcome and say hi to everybody.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Welcome in Raiders. I'm Matthew URG. I am a Christian streamer. I've been streaming since last year. And I love to do Bible studies and read the word, pray for people and connect with people.

Flatcap: Awesome. Well, thank you for bringing and trusting your community here. I will, I will definitely have to check you out later. I'm going to, let's see, let me add a follow here. That way I will make sure and, uh, and be able to check you out. I'm watching. Can you give a shout out there to lounge podcast or, or one of the other people who have mod? I think you have mod access here. Some of the other mods I think are lurking, but. You were, you were talking about, you know, just the God being with you in the time of a struggle and overcoming and, uh, putting the team together around you to help. And the, a time of transition, do I want to do it again or not?

Matthew URG: Right.

Flatcap: Which I'll, I'll just go back to that's where I was three years ago when I was at nerd culture ministry summit, their, their first time out. And I was deciding whether or not to go and get another job, another position as a transition pastor at a church or go start a prayer booth in my local community. And I knew God was calling me to go start a prayer booth in my local community and not have an income and pay out of pocket or try to raise funds to go do all of this. And what, what came up there and I just did not like it. It just didn't. I'm going to be honest. It was, are you willing to trust God again? And my answer was, no, I don't want to trust him again. I've already trusted him. Shouldn't that have been enough? Like, shouldn't that trust from the past just make it easy now? Like, why do I have to trust again that God will take care of me?

Flatcap: Like, I don't want to go back into that position. I like looking at like, and here's, here's where the real struggle was. And this is where I got convicted is at that point, I could have went and looked at my bank account. I could have calculated how many months I would have of my money that would have lasted me and how long I had to do this and make this work and then go find something or do something else and all of that. There's no amount that would have been in my bank account that would have made any sense that said three years later, you're still not going to have full-time employment and full-time income and you're still doing. So that whole, are you willing to trust God again? I had to say yes. And I'll just say for the first six months, I would have the temptation often, I'm just going to go check the bank account.

Flatcap: I'm just, I mean, not that I wasn't paying my bills and stuff like in that regard, but it was like, I'm going to intentionally sit down and calculate what's in there and what's not in there and how long this is going to, no, no, it was like, you can't, you absolutely cannot do that and trust God. And so it's, so that just kind of reminds me of that, that level of, uh, you're in the transition, you know, you don't want to take your eyes off Jesus and see the way you, you want to keep your eyes focused on Jesus.

Matthew URG: Yeah. I, you know, for me, it was like, I knew this transition was going to happen and I was putting it off for months. So I was like, man, I don't want to have to call my pastor and have this conversation, but I called and they were like, oh, us and the elders were already prepared last year. When you told us you were starting streaming, like we knew if you kept going to, it was probably going to happen. So here, you know, I'm like, oh man, what a relief. And so like, we've made an exit plan and, you know, it's like, okay, we can't, we got to keep it hush hush and let people, you know, let the congregation find out. And unless they happen to surprise watch tonight, then, you know, I guess they'll find out.

Matthew URG: But, you know, it's just like, when you are obedient to doing what, you know, God is doing and you do it with the right heart and you do it in the right timing, everything always aligns. And the beautiful thing is my pastor gave me other church recommendations, you know, to like, hey, check out this or check out that. Like they have a great men's ministry. Cause I was just like, you know, like I just need to really be around a lot of other men and be fathered. And, you know, and I think that's just the season I'm in is that I'm looking for that. And I had those opportunities when I was younger, but my ego and my pride, you know, I'm like, oh, I know the Lord. I know some things. I, I've been to Bible college for a year, you know, I can, I can, you know, I can do a few things and, you know, I know some things cause I watch all these people. Preachers on TV and read all these books.

Matthew URG: Or I think I know something because I know how to interpret scripture a certain way. And it's like, nah, I really like, I'm like, man, I don't know nothing. Like all I know is that I love Jesus and I know he loves me. And I just want people to know my story, to know his story and hope that that's just what I want to do. I'm, I tell people I've spent this last year being a lead preacher, teacher at the local body, probably teaching, preaching once a month. And I never share my sermons. And it wasn't until today that I realized why is because I don't like the way I minister or share because I'm not like the people I look up to. And I realized I, because I am who I am and where I come from, I talk differently. My messages are not polished. I don't use all these profound theological terms. Like I would just tell people, don't be a Jonah.

Matthew URG: Like I don't have to like shape it any certain way with like some nice language. It's just like, I give like a law unfiltered me and I was listening to another pastor, interview another pastor earlier today. And he was telling the other pastor, don't change who you are if that's who you like. And I'm realizing, wow, Lord, I've really been trying to change my style because I feel like it doesn't connect with people. I mean, I've had people walk out in the middle of me preaching and make comments like interrupt service and make comments like you don't know what you're talking about. Like you're heresy, like you're twisting scripture, like you need like, and it's hard when it doesn't matter who it is, how long you've been ministering, preaching, teaching that will get to you. And I remember when it first happened, I didn't want to get up on stage for like a whole year.

Matthew URG: Like I'm like, just, and my pastor, I had to really be like, listen, you have to understand there are going to be people that come at you in different ways. And, you know, now that I've been doing online, I've learned it still happens. The only difference is I don't get to see the person. Right, right. They make their comment, you know, they might stick around, but it's been the best learning experience being in a transition. Like I said earlier, like even in my personal struggles going on in this season of my life, I have more joy when I'm streaming, even when I got stuff going on. And it's like, every time I get in my emotional, I'm like, I'm not going to stream because I'm just feeling down. Life is down. I get on, I stream and people are like, I'm so glad you streamed because I needed this tonight. Well, I needed prayer tonight. So that's what I learned.

Matthew URG: You know, Lord, it's not about what I'm going through. It doesn't mean that we dismiss what we're personally going through, but it's like, Lord, I'm doing this because of you. And then I think of everybody else that's doing ministry that is going through something. We all have stuff we're going through. So it's like, all right, I can't be a baby and like use that as my excuse anymore. Like either I'm going to be obedient. I'm going to get on here. I'm going to read the Bible. I'm going to pray for people and do what I know the Lord is calling me to do. Or just don't do it and hope that, you know, life's going to go on and be happy knowing that it probably won't, you know, because you're going to be miserable. You get miserable when you know you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing.

Flatcap: With the prayer, how do you approach that in your stream? Because I know streamers do that several different ways. What is your approach to prayer? Is it with a redeem? Is it with a request? Is it with an asking? How do you utilize prayer within your stream?

Matthew URG: Yeah, they can either submit the prayer request. Through like the hashtag, I use the Forge Bible bot. And, you know, they can do it that way. And that will jump into my Discord and as well as like show up on the screen. And but if they don't do it and they just say, hey, I need prayer for this. I'm struggling in my faith. Like I usually will stop what I'm doing and pray for them right then and there. Sometimes I won't. But I've been more intentional to stop what I'm doing because there was a point where I would stop what I'm doing and pray for them. And then I kind of got a little off that. And then I've kind of gotten back to it. Like, hold on. They came and asked for prayer. Why am I going to like I'm worried about a Bible study? Like, no, I'm going to pause the Bible study. I'm going to pray for them. And then I start praying for them.

Matthew URG: And I look up and two or three more people say, well, I actually I got a prayer request. Then I'm praying for those two or three people. Then I look back up one more person. And so it's like when you open that door, like I love praying for people. That's the one thing. No matter what I got going on, people will call me at midnight, one o'clock in the morning. I will pray with them. There's just something I love to do. I used to make fun of my grandmother all the time because she was the person that always prayed for people. And she would always tell me, one of these days, you're going to end up doing the same thing. And here I am doing the same thing, just in a different space. But it's like, it's like, thanks, grandma. You spoke that over my life and you passed it on. But I find that like everything she taught me, I kind of now carry.

Matthew URG: And I don't I didn't realize that like she was a woman that got up every morning. She spent two or three hours reading, praying, and I realized that that's what I do now. Verbal prophet. Thank you for the raid. Welcome in.

Flatcap: Welcome in, raiders. Glad to have you here. Yeah, you're getting a raid on your side, too. This is pretty cool.

Matthew URG: Yeah, yeah. Thank you, verbal prophet for the raid.

Flatcap: Trying to get a shout out there. There we go. So those of you coming in with the raid, I am a Flatcap Dapper Pastor over here on the Church Digital, the other side of the conversation. Matthew URG is the guest on the podcast. We're just talking about Twitch, talking about ministry, being digital missionaries, and just talking about what God has been up to in the space. So welcome in. So glad to have you here. Hey, man. I love the raids. And then all of a sudden, my brain gets focused on welcoming the raiders and doing that. It's like, what were we talking about before that? But we were talking about prayer and stopping what you're doing for the person that comes in and asks for that, which is what we just did with the raid. We stop what we're doing. We acknowledge the raid. We thank everybody for choosing to join this conversation, no matter what you were doing.

Flatcap: I hope that your stream was blessed earlier and that you've trusted us to come over here and to bless this community with that together. That's such a joy that you came here. We've just been talking about what God has been up to. And I wanted to ask you a little bit more as you look to the rest of the year. So you're in a transition period with your church, but what is the hope and the goal for the rest of this year for you with digital ministry?

Matthew URG: Yeah, my goal is to, I am looking to do more streaming on a couple more nights. Obviously, I'm considering another platform for a couple other nights. I want to make sure I don't overstretch myself. But what I really want to do is be trying to really build the Discord because I feel there's a huge opportunity there. And so I'm always trying to encourage people to jump into the Discord because that's where I'm at. And I'm connected with a lot of different people through other Discord servers. And I just feel like it's such a great place to connect outside of streaming because I don't just want to connect with people for two or three hours, but I want to connect with people outside of that. And because that's where you really build relationships. That's where you're able to meet people, learn about people. And I think my intention also is to engage more in other Discords.

Matthew URG: I'm probably liking it a lot, but there's a few that I want to be more intentional. But I think the last time I've engaged in TCD is I don't even know when. And I'm like, man, I am not like, I'm not, it's not that I'm like bad at engaging. It's just I find a few places and I just kind of stay there. And I've been pulling, you know.

Flatcap: Yeah, that's what happens. You get into a season. Like right now, like I would say six months ago, I was active in a dozen Discord servers. And now I'm probably down to three currently that I'm active in, not including my own. I'm really not active in my own. There's not much in my own. My own is more of a curation and a communication. It is because it's just me leading it. And I'd much rather hang out with other people together doing stuff than to prop up my own thing. But I haven't closed it because there's a lot of good resources that are there. And if anyone's looking, but I totally get that. You get involved with, and it goes back to you saying you could have reached out. Well, I could have reached out as well. But on one level, like I just get invested with the people that are raising their hand. And as long as you keep raising your hand, I keep spending time with you.

Flatcap: I eventually get back around to other people like, hey, you need to be on the podcast. I haven't seen you in a while. I want to catch up. I want to see what's going on. I want to see what God's doing. Also, I didn't want to have you on the podcast too soon with you doing stuff. I wanted to make sure that you had a level of you've been doing it. You had some joys in there as well as just some struggles. And you were able to talk about what is God going to do moving forward that you're not a stick-to-it-ness, but a, yeah, I do see this is what I'm called to. And the vision is getting bigger and the call is increasing. And so now I know where I need to be moving towards and getting closer within what God's target is for me and what I need to be doing.

Matthew URG: Yeah, I'm excited. I mean, there's a lot of things like bigger vision stuff that I want to do. Eventually, I have like a dedicated app that's kind of like similar that just allows people to tap into more things, things that I can't necessarily do in a Discord. But that's down the road is something that I'm trying to do immediately. I think for me, like, it's just stay consistent with streaming, connect with people, build with people, and just learn to support people, which has been, it's easy to support, but I have to learn to not feel like I have to be in everybody's streams because I was doing that for a while.

Flatcap: Oh, yeah. You can only do that for so long if you also are a streamer. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're doing Discord community activities as well, you can only have both the outgo and the invest at a certain capacity. Now there's people with larger capacities out there than me. Yeah, the season I'm in right now is really in the, I'm focused on where is God placing me. So it's like I have drawn back to the minimum engagement in those communities that I'm not needed. I want to continue the relationships and I'll jump back in at some point. But I don't have a lot I can add to them right now because I'm at my capacity.

Matthew URG: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where I learned because, because, you know, I'm also a competitive person. I would get really big on, you know, keeping up my, you know, streak of being in people's streams. And it wasn't until a couple of weeks ago I was like, just, just stop. Like, you're giving more time. And while it's appreciative to those people, I need you to spend more time preparing for the things I need you to do.

Flatcap: Yeah.

Matthew URG: And it's hard because, you know, so even like now I'll try to at least come in and say hi to people. And then I leave, you know, if I can, because that's the best I can do. I just, there might be one or two people that I know I'm going to be in their streams. Either I'm a mod in their stream and I know I'm always going to be there because, but then it's a challenge because I tend to stream around the same time. One, this other person that I mod for. So, but I have to learn like, but I'm called to stream too. And so I can't get caught up in that. Oh, well, should I change my time so I can be in their stream? Because I enjoy their stream. It's like, no, I need to just be obedient to what I know I'm supposed to do. And so that's the discipline I've had to learn over the last couple of weeks. And it's been an adjustment. It's been a hard thing for me because I'm a loyal person by nature.

Matthew URG: And then it's like, I have to work through, like, this doesn't mean I'm not loyal. It doesn't mean. Yep.

Flatcap: You're not betraying them by streaming at the same time and spreading. It would be one of those things where it's like, I know so many people. Well, I wouldn't be able to do the podcast because somebody I know is certainly streaming while I do a podcast. Like, this is when it worked. This is when it's going to happen. So we're here. We're doing this. We're enjoying the conversation and the time. And, you know, whatever other people, you know, I'll be there when I can. I'll support you. I'll encourage you. I'll do those things. Like, you know, and when I can, I've got the Phish channel over there and I've got my channel that are lurking. And I lurk with the church digital to support in ways I can. But, yeah, my capacity is where it is. And so I know that with other people, too, and you give them grace.

Flatcap: The thing is, is sometimes when we are that level, we want to give everyone else grace, but we don't want to give ourselves grace.

Matthew URG: Man, so true. That is my biggest struggle is not giving myself the same grace that I give other people. And, you know, also, like, I'm like a perfectionist competitor. So I always got to do everything. I always feel like I got to up people. I think even that's why, like, when I started here, I was like, nope, I got to buy stuff this way. And then it's like, nah, I don't even have hardly anything because I'm like, I don't even care anymore. Like, nobody, like, that's fine. But, like, people just want you. They just want to know you. They want to know the story behind you, especially if you are talking about Jesus. They want to know your journey. And so I just feel like I'm just now, after doing this for a year, just really honing in on what is working. And I know I'm just at the beginning part of figuring out what's working. Like, I know I got so much more to go.

Matthew URG: I mean, when you reached out to ask me to do this, I almost wasn't going to reply. I was like, I was like, I don't know if I'm ready.

Flatcap: Like, oh, you're ready.

Matthew URG: Or he's going to be able to have a conversation with me for three hours. Like, what are we going to talk about? Like, you know, like, what if I can't do this? And then I just started thinking everything. Like, you know what, I'm going to say yes and not even worry about it. I could have replied and been like, you know, I don't know if it's going to work because my OBS doesn't work. I have to use another platform. But I did. I was just like, you know, I'm going to trust the Lord. And, you know, surprisingly, here we are.

Flatcap: It is. It has been an entire blessing. And we've been hearing comments along the way. Those of you listening to the podcast later, you miss all those comments of people that were commenting in there. Read them all of, wow, I'm being convicted. Wow, your story is really connecting with me. All of those things are true. And no doubt there's going to be more people that your story, your testimony is going to be a blessing in their life. It's going to meet them right when they need it, which is what I love. Somebody is going to find this podcast in five years. And this is going to be the first episode they find is yours. And it's going to be the exact one that they need. I'm not speaking prophetically. I'm just speaking out of trust in God's providence. And I know how he works. And I know he can do that. And he probably will.

Flatcap: And so God is so amazing in that way to be able to bring those things about. And so, yeah, there again goes that, am I worthy to do this or not? Am I called? Comparison just robs joy. And when we compare ourselves to who we think we should be or we compare ourselves to other people, we're going to be who we are right now. And we are exactly the person that God needs us to be right now as we're striving to be who he is making us into.

Matthew URG: Yeah. Yeah. The thing I've been trying to hold on to, I heard this quote from one of the first pastors I ever had. He said, God doesn't call those who are qualified. He qualifies those who he calls. Yeah. And I try to remember that because I tell people, man, I'm the most unqualified person to be doing what I'm doing. But I know it's what he's called me to do. And I enjoy every minute of it, even through the ups and the downs outside of it. It's the greatest joy to be able to connect with people in a digital space that where I know if I need prayer, I got somebody to reach out to. I have people to reach out to. I know there are people that are praying for me. There are people that send me messages that encourage me. And it's just like, who would have thought 30, 20 years ago, we would be in this digital space of ministry. And I remember I made a statement.

Matthew URG: And I think I made a couple of pastors in my area get upset because they were talking about, you know, doing digital ministry. And I just made a comment because I had seen a few different and I just said streaming your service on Sunday is not digital ministry. That's just content. Like really know what digital ministry is. Don't say you got an online ministry because you're streaming.

Flatcap: You don't.

Matthew URG: On Sunday, if you are not engaging with people, if you are not sending them somewhere to engage and interact and have some type of touch point, you are not doing digital ministry. You're just sharing what I consider content on a Sunday. And that's it. You know, like, are you really not talking about giving a welcome chat? I'm talking about really engaging and be like, hey, come over here. And you got live interaction with other people while you're watching. And not a lot of people do that and understand that.

Flatcap: So, yeah, the church, the church did not understand that lesson for many of them when they went live in COVID. All they understood is we need to go online because their struggles with getting together in person. What they did very successfully is create spectators. They did not create participants. And I'm going to be working on this. So if you're listening to this podcast when it comes out in three, four weeks or whatever later, or you're listening to it down the road, the blog post might be out by then. I haven't written it yet. But I am going to be addressing that very issue of you turned people into spectators and you need to have them be participants when they are at home. Saying hello, welcome to the service and never acknowledging the rest of the time is not having them engaged in any kind of relationship or community.

Flatcap: You're absolutely right when you identify that there's a problem there. But you think the solution is come in person where they also can be spectators. Right. Because you aren't making them into participants and you're not building relationship even when you are IRL, when you are in person. You're not doing those things. So COVID pointed out a problem we had physically. Then we just shifted the problem online. But we think online is the problem instead of acknowledging the real problem was we were not creating community with our people. We were not having them participants in the service, in what was happening. They were spectators, which is, I think, what we learned how to create with the Seeker Sensitive taught us how to create spectators. And we need to go back to building relationships.

Flatcap: And that's what I really love about online is we can actually do it if we're there Monday through Friday and not just there on Sunday. But just wait for the blog post. It won't be so much of me on my high horse pointing fingers and all of that.

Matthew URG: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think also it's made people rethink what even the local church looks like. Yes. I mean, because of being in the background of doing marketing, I was in places where it became all about names, people. It's like the pastors became the salesmen, the gospel became the pamphlet, and the people became a transaction. And I feel like what we've been through with COVID and even real digital ministry is it's challenging, I think, even the local body to really assess what does it look like. I've even seen some churches that have gotten rid of all the big screens and everything and kind of like toned stuff down and said, listen, we don't care about having the nicest chairs. We got pews. We're going to just run with that. Besides, we got some decent carpet. That's all we need. We don't care about everything else.

Matthew URG: We're not worried about everything else because it's not about that. We want to use the money that people give in Tide to actually really impact the community, not be all about what's inside the building. And that's all about digital ministry. Like you're getting raw people that are coming from places that have been either been hurt or disappointed. You have pastors like yourself and others that are supping out of where they normally would be into a space to speak to people, to reach to people. And I just think we need it. I think digital space is here. It's not going anywhere. Digital ministry is not going anywhere. We know it's evolving. We know that there's VR churches out there, VR. I mean, it's only going to increase.

Matthew URG: And I think for those of us that have been called to digital ministry, I think we have to figure out what God specifically is calling us to, not to try and do everything. We can't be the Jack and Jills of all trades. And know that it's not going to be perfect. Find our core people, find community, tap into the church digital and any other places that provide resources and support, because that's the only way we're going to be able to make it, you know, to be able to do things, to get equipped, to get connected.

Flatcap: Yeah, absolutely. One of the shifts that we're going to be doing here, probably coming next month, we just started conversations around this, so we don't have it planned. We're so excited about it. It's going to happen. We've decided on one level, we need to start modeling some of the things we're talking about in the sense of doing some Bible study. So we'll do some, the HEAR method, if you don't know that, it's highlight, explain, apply, and respond. So you take a passage, you have everybody together, you're all doing this. It's not a top-down leader doing it. Discovery Bible study, similar kind of approach, a little bit different, but it doesn't matter which one you're doing. We're going to start modeling that so that people who don't believe that digital ministry is actually relational will be able to go and look at us doing this and be able to see that it's real.

Flatcap: We've decided we need to do that also to encourage others who, you know, we've said these are things you can do. And we haven't tried to like, hey, everybody come here and join us to do this. So I don't know any details of where they're going to happen. I'm just going to say, stay tuned, and I'll be talking about it at some point. And after playing around with some thoughts in my mind, I'm wondering whether I could do one on Twitch or not. I don't know if that could be a thing where it's going to be a set schedule. So I'm not promising this. I'm just thinking out loud here, which I love to do. I'm a verbal processor. I think out loud. So what if I just had and had it open and you would have to join the stream together chat? You don't have to turn your camera on, but you would join the stream together chat.

Flatcap: I'd put everybody on the screen and we would just engage the conversation of who's in here. A little bit of the chat, but mostly those of us who are on the stream and jump in. I don't know if that's possible. I don't know how messy that would be. I'm willing to try it and fail, but I don't know if it'll happen. I've got a lot of stuff happening this fall, so I might go try to do it not on stream first and wait till January to try to launch something on stream after we've had a couple of go rounds of doing that. But who knows? Maybe God will tap me on the shoulder now that I've verbally processed it out loud. And he said, well, it was your idea. Why don't you go do it? But that's one of the things that we're looking at is we do want to be an encouragement for people, but we're thinking of how do we model these?

Flatcap: This digital discipleship process for the physical church who's not convinced that it's real ministry to show them that we're doing real ministry, to see the engagement and to do all of those things. And then also, I think a little bit of the beauty of doing it on Twitch is you have strangers who will just wander into it accidentally and check it out as opposed to other platforms if we were live or if we're just in a Zoom call or if we're just in a Discord video call. We're not going to have strangers who will just pray about that of what God might do or could do. But I love exploring new possibilities and what God can do. And so that's one of the things that we're going to be moving into. I got a conversation tomorrow about what that might look like. I might bring this up and see what happens.

Flatcap: But is there just as you're kind of wrapping up, is there anything that you just felt like you might want to bring it up? You might be a good topic to share here that we haven't touched on or anything that God's laying on your heart just to close with.

Matthew URG: No, I think just the only thing I will say is like, whether you're a new streamer or you've already been streaming, that you're not going to be perfect. Things aren't going to always go your way. And it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to not get everything right. And just, you know, if you said yes to God to do streaming, just, you know, find the right people to surround you. They can help you and take your time. Don't put so much pressure on you. It's not about the follows. It's not about the subs. If you only reach one person every time you stream for the first six or seven months, that's all that's important. You know, we're called to, you know, Jesus left the 99 for the one. I believe Twitch is the one that I'm called to and that many of us are called to. And so we just have to think about it. It's about that one.

Flatcap: Yeah, 100% agree with that. Love it. Love it. You'll be able to hang out with Matt for a while longer. And then you'll pass the blessing on from all of this wonderful people that have joined us in all the raids that we've had. It has been a wonderful conversation. It certainly was spirit-filled. Really feel your heart. I hope other people feel that as well. And also, I'll just say, don't let people discourage you that you're not called to do this or you're not called to ministry or you're not saying the right words. I actually try to intentionally not use any, you know, Christianese language and theological terms when I talk to people, because if I'm relying on those, you don't understand what I'm talking about. So I know there's some people that love that you were talking about, you know, you can't do it the way other people do. I don't do it the way other people do either.

Flatcap: I love people that give quotes. I can't give quotes. I've tried it. I sit there and I read it and I'm kicking myself as I'm trying to read the quote of you're not doing it right. You're not saying it right. You're like, no, no. I'm a storyteller. OK, so I'm going to tell you a story and I'm going to embellish it to all get out because I love to embellish things and I'm going to draw you in and tell in a story. So I was like, I can't ask anybody to duplicate what I do. Don't don't try doing what I do. I'm I'm I'm just that's how I do it. And, you know, I learned the way in seminary of how do you do things? I can do that. It will sound a little bit wooden. It won't sound so genuine. So I've had to have to become authentically who who God's made me to be. And that's really I just want to encourage you, Matt, to keep doing that. It is what I see. God blessing you.

Flatcap: You're telling stories about it. And a year from now, can't wait to see what God's God's doing in and among you, man.

Matthew URG: Oh, man. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Flatcap: Thank you, everybody. Again, we'll see you again soon. I'll see you again soon.